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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

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Cabot Returned my £1 Cheque


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I have 3 accounts which were set up years and years ago when I had a thriving business (When things were good the banks were throwing money at me!). Unfortunately when my business folded I was left with the debt on the cards. I considered bankruptcy but instead opted to try and deal with my creditors although this is a decision I now regret since I had already lost my house and car and owned nothing. I contacted the Consumer Credit Counselling Service and they set up arrangements with my creditors and I had to pay £210 per month for six years. I made every payment on time for almost three years and then hit on hard times again when I lost my job. After falling one month in arrears I received statements from MBNA and CitiCard and they had both applied late fees and interest to the account which amounted to more than £220. I fell further and further in arrears while looking for work and the debt mounted very quickly undoing almost all of the previous three years payments. Eventually things settled down again, I got re assessed by the CCCS and continued to make regular payments. In October 2007 I received a letter from Cabot Financial telling me they now owned the debt that once belonged to CitiFinancial and enclosed a statement. They had added £190 in interest! I contacted them and explained that I was on an arrangement to pay and asked why they did not honour that. They informed me that they now owned the debt and said unless I could provide in writing the agreement for the reduced payments signed by CitiFinancial they were not going to refund the interest. I have now stopped paying the CCCS and all my creditors – enough is enough! I am sure the idea of these companies was to keep me in debt for ever – I feel like they have made their money out of me over the years and now just want blood.

 

 

I have now made a CCA request to all of them. Cabot have written back to me and stated they are not obliged to provide the information under sections 77 and/or section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and have returned my £1 cheque.

 

 

What next?

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Do not deal with them on the phone at all. Put everything in writing and send registered if you can afford to do so as you need to track everything. Write and tell them you do not acknowledge any debt to them and that you will not deal with them until they produce a true copy of a properly executed agreement as your previous letter requested. Then sit back and wait for their next move.

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Thanks for the advice.

 

I am concerned that in the past few months I have spoken to them on the telephone and have maybe admitted that I owe money since I was arguing about interest and payments. Can they use a telephone recording of my conversation if it gets to court?

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Cabot are in effect saying that they are not the creditor (as defined by the CCA) when they say they don't have to supply your CCA. What they are saying is that they have the rights, but not the duties, of creditor and the definition of "creditor" has to cover them both. "so we're exempt!".

 

So, they must be the equitable assignee of your debt. But, if they meet the requirements of S136 of the LAw of Property Act then there's an absolute legal assignment and they are in fact the creditor. Doesn't matter if they like it or not. You got told about them owning it and I bet they got the debt as a result of a written agreement - so it's absolute. I must admit that assignment by deed isn't necessary (which diverges from some thought on here) but there are enough cases to back up that view. So, Cabot having so kindly having written to you to tell you they own the debt is sufficient as the written agreement with the assignor will almost certainly exist.

 

And they have continually overlooked one particular point - S173(1) of the CCA;

 

Contracting-out forbidden.

— (1) A term contained in a regulated agreement or linked transaction, or in any other agreement relating to an actual or prospective regulated agreement or linked transaction, is void if, and to the extent that, it is inconsistent with a provision for the protection of the debtor or hirer or his relative or any surety contained in this Act or in any regulation made under this Act.

 

So they may have a cute little agreement which makes them able to say "it's an equitable assignment because of this particular sentence in the assignment". Sorry, but if that means you've put that in to avoid Section 77 onwards )and the responses that they've provided so far indicate it has), then I'm afraid S173 (1) voids it.

 

In equity, Cabot own the debt and S173(1) is the means of recognising that in law. The Act was not designed to give a creditor rights but leave the duties as an "orphan". (Just imagine - the original creditor has assigned the rights to Cabot but the OC then goes bust. The "duties" can't be left to go down with the ship..).

 

When is the 12 working days + one calendar month from the date Cabot received your CCA request up?

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I know this is going to sound as if I'm picking on you Mister Twister, but I have to say this on someones thread and it might as well be yours. So try not to take this the wrong way:

 

It has become increasingly apparent that exactly the same questions are being asked over and over again, until it gets to the point where folks would be just as well having a standard Cabot-like template handy to copy and paste in reply.

 

So can I just ask, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take the time to have a read of at least a few of the existing threads, where the self same questions are being answered repeatedly, and almost daily.

 

This isn't meant to be a rant even if it comes across as one. But I surely can't be the only one getting just slightly annoyed about this trend.

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I concur - I personally stuck to the approach that Mr Seahorse suggests above, and my dealings with Cabot so far have been plain sailing(pun intended). At least, I've had no suprises.

 

Just follow the steps laid out. There is a definite pattern if you look at any arbitrary 5 threads on here.

 

I just get frustrated waiting for the days to roll by until I can follow through with the next actions.

 

Stick to the time limits laid out and be vehement with these people , oh and invest in a diary if you can manage it.

Struggling_Simon vs Cabot - WON

Struggling_Simon vs Abbey - WON

Struggling_Simon vs HBOS - Pending

--------------------------------------------

IF I HAVE HELPED PLEASE CLICK MY SCALES

 

Vigilantibus non dormientibus æquitas subvenit

Somper in excretia,som solem profundus variat.

 

 

 

Opinions given herein are made informally by myself as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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I have a day off work today so got plenty of hours to read through the threads.

 

12 Days is up a week today so it is a waiting game until then. In the meantime I hope to recieve something from my other 2 creditors.

 

I will keep you posted.

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  • 4 weeks later...

In the light of CFC being blown all over the forum i will try and advise.

 

Basically they have not got it and never will get it i am assuming it is by the 12 day marker? if so it is now in dispute.

 

Once you get to day 42 they are breaking the law and that's where you start sending angry grams to fos, trading standards etc etc also i am sure seahorse said it is better to exhaust Crapbots complaint procedures first so i would do a search for his post as most info you would need is in there.

 

I am sure if anything i have said is wrong someone will correct it.

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What exactly would you be reporting them for? Admitting that they haven't supplied a copy of the agreement and stating that they are not pursuing you for payment?

 

It is best to wait until they send out the threatomatic demanding payment when they are over the 12 working days plus calendar month before reporting them. Then you can make a far more weighty complaint to TS. You can not make complaints to the FOS without first going through Cabots complaints procedure, they would then have 8 weeks to resolve the complaint to your satisfaction.

 

This procedure is the same for all DCA's.

 

Basically they have not got it and never will get it i am assuming it is by the 12 day marker? if so it is now in dispute.

No the account is in dispute from the date that they receive your CCA request stating I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE...After the 12 working days they are in default and may not enforce the account.

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

BEWARE OF CLAIMS MANAGEMENT COMPANIES OFFERING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS.

 

 

Please note opinions given by rory32 are offered informally as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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In the light of CFC being blown all over the forum

You are very lucky to have any forum at all to post in after the crash at the weekend.

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

BEWARE OF CLAIMS MANAGEMENT COMPANIES OFFERING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS.

 

 

Please note opinions given by rory32 are offered informally as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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You are very lucky to have any forum at all to post in after the crash at the weekend.

 

uhuh... lets stick to the facts of the thread and try and help people which is what i am trying to do in the absence of the more experienced cfc people.

 

If you would rather i shut up and not answer unanswered posts then so be it. :-|

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In the light of CFC being blown all over the forum i will try and advise.

 

uhuh... lets stick to the facts of the thread
Such remarks have nothing to do with the facts of the thread.

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

BEWARE OF CLAIMS MANAGEMENT COMPANIES OFFERING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS.

 

 

Please note opinions given by rory32 are offered informally as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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  • 7 months later...

With regard to Cabot, I am in dispute with them over a debt. I did as per the recommendations, and requested a copy of my CCA. They failed to send it, then about three weeks later, sent a letter in which they returned my postal order for £1 and as above, claimed that they were not liable under the legislation to send me the information requested, but out of courtesy (!) would see if they could get my original CCA from the owner of the debt.

 

I then wrote back informing them that they were over the statutory 12 day limit, that they were now in breach, and that I was sending them Statutory Notice pursuant to section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1988 requesting them to cease storing and processing my data.

 

Today (23rd Sept) I have received a letter which states:

 

cabot23sept08.jpg

 

What I would like to know, is where I now stand? Cabot are denying that they are liable under the CCA 1974, and that they do not have to remove my details under the 1988 Data Protection Act.

 

In other words, they are telling me that whatever I do, and no matter how long it takes them to find my original CCA, they will still pursue this debt and don't care about the law.

 

Can they do this?

 

What should my next course of action be please? Thank you.

Edited by shifnal
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  • 4 weeks later...
With regard to Cabot, I am in dispute with them over a debt. I did as per the recommendations, and requested a copy of my CCA. They failed to send it, then about three weeks later, sent a letter in which they returned my postal order for £1 and as above, claimed that they were not liable under the legislation to send me the information requested, but out of courtesy (!) would see if they could get my original CCA from the owner of the debt.

 

I then wrote back informing them that they were over the statutory 12 day limit, that they were now in breach, and that I was sending them Statutory Notice pursuant to section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1988 requesting them to cease storing and processing my data.

 

Today (23rd Sept) I have received a letter which states:

 

cabot23sept08.jpg

 

What I would like to know, is where I now stand? Cabot are denying that they are liable under the CCA 1974, and that they do not have to remove my details under the 1988 Data Protection Act.

 

In other words, they are telling me that whatever I do, and no matter how long it takes them to find my original CCA, they will still pursue this debt and don't care about the law.

 

Can they do this?

 

What should my next course of action be please? Thank you.

 

Bump.

 

I am in exactly the same situation - they returned my Postal Order and said they have no legal obigation to supply this information to me. So what do I do now?

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Rosie what was the alleged debt for.

Goldfish Credit Card - or Morgan Stanley as the card was when I took it out. I don't dispute the debt to them, but having recently won a case against HFO Services who never provided proof of their ownership of the debt, I always thought it was a legal requirement. Maybe I'm wrong!

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Goldfish Credit Card - or Morgan Stanley as the card was when I took it out. I don't dispute the debt to them, but having recently won a case against HFO Services who never provided proof of their ownership of the debt, I always thought it was a legal requirement. Maybe I'm wrong!

 

Just checking that it was for a credit card. As usual Crapbot are talking utter tripe. The are a Creditor as defined by S 189 of the CCA 1974. They claim to have bought the rights but not the duties of the alleged debt. Again this is utter tosh. They are obliged under S 175 of the CCA to pass your request on to the original Creditor. As it stands now they will be in breach of the CPUTR 2008. If they send you any more begging letters then make a formal complaint against them.

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Here is a copy of the CCA that I use. As you will see it eliminates all their excuses before they make them

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY OR ANY COMPANY YOU CLAIM TO REPRESENT

 

Re: Account no: xxxxxxxx

 

This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

 

I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit. You are reminded that should you fail to comply with my request, the provisions of s.77(6) will apply.

 

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b),6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

 

I enclose a postal order in the sum of £1.00, which is the statutory fee. Note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose.

 

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee.

© 42 Man

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Crapbot do seem to be doing some strange thing lately.

 

In my case, they put the £1 towards the balance of the alleged debt, but still sent me letters acknowledging my CCA request. How are they going to convince a court that the only £1 I ever sent them, at exactly the same time as they have replied quoting "Your request", is in fact a payment towards the alleged debt?

 

I wonder what their "algorithm" is in deciding what to do. In my case, I assume they put the £1 towards the alleged debt in an attempt to start the clock again on statute barring, although it is nowhere near that point.

 

That letter in shifnal's post is pointless. In the first full paragraph, below the three single lines, they acknowledge having received the request. What is the point of coming out with all of the other drivel that everyone knows is false?

 

What are Crapbot trying to achieve?

 

SH

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Cabot's business model depends upon the people they target being ignorant of the law and thus not being able to defend themselves.

 

Cabot's infamous 'we are not obliged to provide this information' letter is both wrong (for the reasons subsequently explained), and designed to mislead. However, until the OFT, FOS or TS does something about it I suspect they'll keep churning it out.

 

Companies like this know that their industry is poorly regulated, and so they know that they can get away with telephone harassment and misleading letters in the majority of cases. In the absence of meaningful regulation and enforcement, only when the number of people aware of the law and who assert their rights exceeds the number of people who do not will Cabot et al change their behaviour.

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OK thanks guys.

 

They have already returned my PO with their letter saying they have no legal obligation to provide me with a copy of the credit agreement, so would it be worth sending them a copy of ODC's letter in the post above or not? Thanks.

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Cabot are the so called professionals and as such should be aware of their LEGAL obligations. Its your call but personally I would wait until the 12 working days are up and then if they continue with their begging letters report their sorry asses to TS, the OFT and your MP. You should also write and make a formal complaint to CABOT. They obviously think that everyone is as stupid as them.

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Cabot are the so called professionals and as such should be aware of their LEGAL obligations. Its your call but personally I would wait until the 12 working days are up and then if they continue with their begging letters report their sorry asses to TS, the OFT and your MP. You should also write and make a formal complaint to CABOT. They obviously think that everyone is as stupid as them.

OK thanks. 12 days is up on Wednesday so I will do something then:)

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