REALLY NEED ADVICE please.. How likely am I to get this FPN cancelled?

[Bradders33]

Hi All,

 

Hoping you's can help, bit complicated.... But I got given a Fixed Penalty Notice by a Police Community Support Officer yesterday.

 

Parking is getting horrendous where I work (Central Milton Keynes.) due to Developers building on all the bleedin' car parking spaces... ANYHOO... In CMK, parking is mainly meters or permits and it is ran by NCP for the council. Yet, in two places in CMK by my work there is a small rack of parking spaces, sandwiched between two sets of private, controlled parking bays. That have no road-markings, signage, yellow lines or ANYTHING, people that get these in spaces normally, get there early and do not have to display a ticket or permit of any kind to park there.

 

So yesterday, I was as pleased-as-punch to get one of these spaces, having spent 20 mins of my lunchbreak trying to find a somewhere. But upon my return, I had a FPN from a PCSO saying that I was causing an "Unnecessary Obstruction" and that was all it said besides the fact that I have a £30 fine.

 

The cars next to me, were not ticketed and I could not see what I was obstructing. I double-checked and there were still no signs or road markings!

 

I rang the officer today and was told I was obstructing "a path leading from a fire exit" and that the business who's fire exit it was reported my car as it was "an ongoing issue for them".. Yet there were no signs saying "no parking" and none to indicate I was near any fire exit, let alone a "path that leads to one"..

 

I was also told that CMK was a restricted area and that you'd get ticketed for parking anywhere other than a marked bay, which, yes, is true, but none of these bays were marked, yet only I was ticketed, and the parking in marked bays rule as far as I am aware applied to bays only under NCP's jurisdiction, otherwise, private and free bays would get tickets too. Plus, if this is another reason for my ticket, it wasn't even stated on my FPN.

 

I was ALSO told that where I parked was a footpath / pavement, I'll agree that the paving was grey-slabs and not grey block-paving like the rest, but both were on the same smooth level, there was no kerb, steps or road markings to show it was a pathway. Again, my FPN did not state I was parked on a footpath / pavement either.

 

One more thing, it says I was parked on Midsummer Boulevard, however I was not, I was parked on a small back road which links Midsummer Boulevard with an exact parallel road called Silbury Boulevard, the roads doesn't appear to have a name, but being picky, I wasn't actually parked on Midsummer Bouelvard was I?

 

So, I have started typing my letter of appeal, wondering if I stand a chance, what I can add to improve my chances and if there is a risk of a bigger fine at all??

 

Thanks in advance,

Bradders. xx

[green_and_mean]

The FPN is an offer from the Police to settle out of Court for a fixed amount. If you think the car was not obstructing the way that is claimed by the Police officer you will have to go to magistrates court and dispute it which may result in a higher fine if found guilty.

[Bradders33]

The FPN is an offer from the Police to settle out of Court for a fixed amount. If you think the car was not obstructing the way that is claimed by the Police officer you will have to go to magistrates court and dispute it which may result in a higher fine if found guilty.

 

Hi,

 

Thanks.

 

I haven't really got the £30 to pay in the first place, so the thought of paying a higher fine doesn't appeal. But on principal as well as finances I want to appeal especially, as I feel that my FPN seems riddled with flaws and very unjust.

 

Is ther an upper limit on what my fine to go up to?

 

I would have thought that if I stated I good case (I have maps, photo's etc.. ) that I would just get the FPN struck off? Obviously not then!!

 

Bradders. x

[green_and_mean]

Obstruction is a fairly subjective thing which is why Councils cannot issue tickets for it, all Council PCNs are absolute contraventions with no scope for discretion or judgement. Its always worth a go in court if you feel strongly about it the PCSO may fail to turn up or provide poor evidence.

[Michael Browne]

I wasn't actually parked on Midsummer Bouelvard was I?

 

On Google Maps, this link road is also labelled Midsummer Boulevard even though it's at right angles to the main Midsummer road

[Bradders33]

On Google Maps, this link road is also labelled Midsummer Boulevard even though it's at right angles to the main Midsummer road

 

Is it?!

 

Not when I look it isn't... I was parked in the next parallel road up from Upper 5th Street.

[Michael Browne]

Just checked again. On satellite (show labels) and magnification 2 or 3 from the top

[Bradders33]

Just checked again. On satellite (show labels) and magnification 2 or 3 from the top

 

Ah okay, I see it now, thanks for that!!

[patdavies]

If you think the car was not obstructing the way that is claimed by the Police officer you will have to go to magistrates court and dispute it which may result in a higher fine if found guilty.

 

It wasn't a Police Officer, it was a PCSO.

 

PCSO's are not automatically able to issue parking tickets unless specifically authorised by the Chief Constable to be granted the same powers as Traffic Wardens

 

Powers

 

All PCSOs' powers stem from the Police Reform Act of 2002 (which has been since amended), describing a large set of powers that PCSOs can have. The Chief Constable of each service throughout England, Wales and Northern Ireland (the Commissioner for the Metropolitan Police) can decide which of the powers available in law their PCSOs are to be designated with. Each service will have policies about how PCSOs should act and what powers they should use how, where and when. PCSOs do not have a duty to act unlike police constables; it is up to their discretion whether they should exercise a power in each situation. Each PCSO is assigned their powers and must carry a card which lists precisely all the powers they have. Unlike a police constable, a PCSO only has powers when on duty and in uniform, and within the region policed by their respective force.

A consultation process in January 2006 announced intentions to expand some of the powers available to PCSOs.

The powers a PCSO can be assigned at present are:

• Detain a person for up to 30 minutes to establish their identity if they have committed a relevant offence. This may be until the arrival of a Police Constable otherwise the person may elect to accompany the PCSO to the Police Station instead of waiting
  
• Issue Fixed Penalty Notices for various traffic offences, dog fouling, littering, and cycling on footpaths.
  
• Issue penalty notices for disorder for various offences including public order, criminal damage and theft.
  
• Deal with begging by demanding them to stop.
  
• Seize alcohol and tobacco from people under the legal age to be consuming those products.
  
• Request a person to stop drinking alcohol in designated public areas, and seize the containers, whether open or closed or any container that the PCSO believes may be used for the consumption of alcohol.
  
• Enter property to save life, prevent injury, or prevent serious damage to property.
  
• Seize vehicles used to cause alarm and distress.
  
• Remove abandoned vehicles, or require them to be removed.
  
• Stop vehicles for the purpose of a road check or for exhaust emissions testing.
  
• Regulate traffic for the purpose of escorting abnormal loads.
  
• Establish, maintain and enforce a cordoned area established under section 33 of the Terrorism Act 2000.
  
• Stop and search pedestrians, vehicles and items carried by driver and passengers under section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000.
  
• Stop and search persons under the respective legal ages for alcohol and tobacco.
  
• Search any person who they have detained for articles that could be used to escape or for objects that may be used to harm the person or the PCSO.
  
• Seize and retain any prohibited articles ie drugs or weapons they find during the course of any of the above searches.

As with any person, they also have full powers of arrest and can arrest anyone without warrant if they know or believe they have committed an indictable offence. Individual force guidelines, however, may instruct them not to use this power.

[Bradders33]

It wasn't a Police Officer, it was a PCSO.

 

PCSO's are not automatically able to issue parking tickets unless specifically authorised by the Chief Constable to be granted the same powers as Traffic Wardens

 

Interesting, thanks...

 

In Thames Valley it says...

 

Powers

PCSOs in Thames Valley have the power to:

• stop cyclists who are cycling on the pavement and issue fixed penalty notices for cycling on the pavement
  
• issue local authority fixed penalty notices for dog fouling and litter dropping
  
• seize alcohol from people in designated no drinking areas
  
• seize alcohol and tobacco from people under age
  
• demand the name and address of people acting in an anti-social manner
  
• seize vehicles used to cause alarm, or remove abandoned vehicles
  
• carry out road checks and stop vehicles for testing
  
• enforce cordoned areas
  
• disperse groups and remove young persons to their place of residence
  
• enter property to save life or limb or prevent serious damage

So does that mean that they DON'T have the power to issue me with this particular FPN??

[patdavies]

But is Milton Keynes under TVP?

[patdavies]

Ignore my last post.

 

I've just looked it up and MK is within TVP area of responsibility.

[patdavies]

This is what the Police Reform says on the matter of FPNs.

 

SCHEDULE 4 Powers exercisable by police civilians

 

Part 1 Community Support Officers

 

Powers to issue fixed penalty notices

 

1 (1) Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that person shall have the powers specified in sub-paragraph (2) in relation to any individual who he has reason to believe has committed a relevant fixed penalty offence at a place within the relevant police area.

(2) Those powers are the following powers so far as exercisable in respect of a relevant fixed penalty offence—

(a) the powers of a constable in uniform and of an authorised constable to give a penalty notice under Chapter 1 of Part 1 of the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 (c. 16) (fixed penalty notices in respect of offences of disorder);

(b) the power of a constable in uniform to give a person a fixed penalty notice under section 54 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (c. 53) (fixed penalty notices) in respect of an offence under section 72 of the Highway Act 1835 (c. 50) (riding on a footway) committed by cycling;

© the power of an authorised officer of a local authority to give a notice under section 4 of the Dogs (Fouling of Land) Act 1996 (c. 20) (fixed penalty notices in respect of dog fouling); and

(d) the power of an authorised officer of a litter authority to give a notice under section 88 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 (c. 43) (fixed penalty notices in respect of litter).

(3) In this paragraph “relevant fixed penalty offence”, in relation to a designated person, means an offence which—

(a) is an offence by reference to which a notice may be given to a person in exercise of any of the powers mentioned in sub-paragraph 1(2)(a) to (d); and

(b) is specified or described in that person’s designation as an offence he has been designated to enforce under this paragraph.

[Bradders33]

This is what the Police Reform says on the matter of FPNs.

 

And in Plain English??!! LOL!!

[patdavies]

I have enquired of TV police officers.

 

The opinion there is that even though Police and PCSOs cannot issue FPNs for parking, they can for obstruction.

 

Also, and I quote

There is no such thing as a free space in MK to park unless its surrounded by a GREEN line.... and gaps in between are not for parking in..... the rules state you must park within a parked bay otherwise you are committing a parking offence and or obstruction

 

 

In MK all bays have either GREEN, RED or PURPLE lines infront of them and they denote the fees you pay, GREEN = Free RED and PURPLE have a fee and one is more expensive than the other

[patdavies]

Question: Was this on the highway or council off-highway parking?

[Bradders33]

They are private bays, but with no restrictions or permits required.

 

The Red, Purple and Green bays are relating to council owned bays that are patrolled by NCP, these bays do not have this as they are not council owned.

[Bradders33]

I have enquired of TV police officers.

 

The opinion there is that even though Police and PCSOs cannot issue FPNs for parking, they can for obstruction.

 

Also, and I quote

 

Interesting as when I rang them thsi morning, they said PSCOs have the same rights as Traffic Wardens!?!?!

 

Also, they have issued me with an FPN for an obstruction that was not obvious that I was causing.

 

BTW, another sucker is parked in the space today! Like there is EVERY day, they must be raking in a mint on that space.

[green_and_mean]

It wasn't a Police Officer, it was a PCSO.

 

PCSO's are not automatically able to issue parking tickets unless specifically authorised by the Chief Constable to be granted the same powers as Traffic Wardens

 

Police Community Support Officer, they are still Police officers in the general sense I intended.

[Rob S]

Police Community Support Officer, they are still Police officers in the general sense I intended.

 

No they are not. They do not hold the office of constable.

[patdavies]

In fact, in the Police Reform Act 2002, which establishes their existence, they are titled Community Support Officers - the word Police does not appear.

 

A lot of the time, they are not even funded by the Police. The two plastic policemen that we have here are funded by the LA and the Housing Association

[green_and_mean]

No they are not. They do not hold the office of constable.

 

I never mentioned Constables? Chief superintendants are not contables either are you telling me they are not Police officers? I cannot see the point of nit picking other peoples posts for no other reason than trying to sound clever? I am fully aware of the difference between a sworn police officer and a PCSO but PCSOs are still officers and members of the police force so I was not incorrect in my post.

[patdavies]

I never mentioned Constables? Chief superintendants are not contables either are you telling me they are not Police officers? I cannot see the point of nit picking other peoples posts for no other reason than trying to sound clever? I am fully aware of the difference between a sworn police officer and a PCSO but PCSOs are still officers and members of the police force so I was not incorrect in my post.

 

I take your point about nit-picking, but your post here is wrong.

 

A Chief Superintendent does hold the office of Constable; as does every other Police Officer with a warrant card.

 

CSO are civilan employees of the Police Force (Service:mad:); they are not Police Officers

[green_and_mean]

I take your point about nit-picking, but your post here is wrong.

 

A Chief Superintendent does hold the office of Constable; as does every other Police Officer with a warrant card.

 

CSO are civilan employees of the Police Force (Service:mad:); they are not Police Officers

 

Rank

 

The rank structure of Metropolitan Police officers is as follows:

• Commissioner
  
• Deputy Commissioner
  
• Assistant Commissioner
  
• Deputy Assistant Commissioner
  
• Commander
  
• Chief Superintendent
  
• Superintendent
  
• Chief Inspector
  
• Inspector
  
• Sergeant
  
• Constable

A sworn in Police officer starts as a Constable once promoted they are no longer Contables.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Rank

 

The rank structure of Metropolitan Police officers is as follows:

• Commissioner
  
• Deputy Commissioner
  
• Assistant Commissioner
  
• Deputy Assistant Commissioner
  
• Commander
  
• Chief Superintendent
  
• Superintendent
  
• Chief Inspector
  
• Inspector
  
• Sergeant
  
• Constable

A sworn in Police officer starts as a Constable once promoted they are no longer Contables.

 

G&M,

You are confusing yourself with the terminology.

A "Constable" in the sense being discussed here refers to a capacity conferred on an individual by the monarch. It is not solely referring to the rank of police officer described as "constable".

The clue is in the fact that the big cheese in most police forces/services is "Chief Constable".