Benefit Cheats

[Bookworm]

All the moaners about people on benefits who are happy in a job right now, just wait and see what's coming, more job losses and so on.

Well said, J&W, the same thought crossed my mind only a few days ago. My husband, for whatever weird reason, decided to bring the Sun home. As usual, unable to resist anything with printed words on it (yes, even the Sun, I am gettign help!!) I had a look, and there was this family with feck knows how many kids proudly boasting that they had never claimed anything (bet you she still claims child benefit though, right?), he worked 2 jobs, all their kids are following suit, bla-di-bla and how they despised the previous family featured (in a previous edition I suppose) with 12 kids, living on benefits all their lives, they should be ashamed of themselves, etc... and my 1st thought was: "and what happens if the factory in which you have worked for 20 years and know nothing else to do shuts next week? How are you planning to feed those 9 or 10 kids? Will you be letting them starve out of pride that you don't want the State's help? and how will it feel when YOU're the next feckless family fronting the Sun as an example of benefit-mad families for the jeering and stone-throwing of the crowds, I wonder?" :mad:

[PriorityOne]

No. It's a diagnosis for a social communication disorder. The word "social" refers to the "communication" part, not the "disorder" part. To misunderstand the condition and misinterpret it because of that is just plain ignorant, sorry too.

 

People like you play right into the hands of the newest minister who was telling us 2-3 weeks ago that there was "too much diagnosis" of autism, also darkly hinting at the "abuse" that was going on, when the only abuse that goes on is the one at the hands of the ones who have all the bloody power to control the media, control whatever we get told, control how things are handled from the inside, and ultimately can turn people against one another so easily with their bloody money and propaganda power.

 

There's too much diagnosis of ADHD, which is a social behavioural disorder... not a communication disorder. That sounds like something that's been chucked in along the way just to make it more plausible! Either that, or you're confusing it with something else that runs alongside ADHD without researching it properly.

 

We live in a diagnosis society... some is justified and some is just plain convenient.... but the growth in medicating children over the years just for behavioural disorders (Ritalin) is cause for concern.

 

We're getting way off topic now....

[JonCris]

I'm sorry folks but the moment you go down the road of intervention in family life as we have recently seen you give a licence to those who want to sterilize or even in todays world genetically engineer humans to make them sterile much like GM crops Family life, anyones family good or bad, should be sacrosanct. Anything else smacks of the gas chambers

[PriorityOne]

Well said, J&W, the same thought crossed my mind only a few days ago. My husband, for whatever weird reason, decided to bring the Sun home. As usual, unable to resist anything with printed words on it (yes, even the Sun, I am gettign help!!) I had a look, and there was this family with feck knows how many kids proudly boasting that they had never claimed anything (bet you she still claims child benefit though, right?), he worked 2 jobs, all their kids are following suit, bla-di-bla and how they despised the previous family featured (in a previous edition I suppose) with 12 kids, living on benefits all their lives, they should be ashamed of themselves, etc... and my 1st thought was: "and what happens if the factory in which you have worked for 20 years and know nothing else to do shuts next week? How are you planning to feed those 9 or 10 kids? Will you be letting them starve out of pride that you don't want the State's help? and how will it feel when YOU're the next feckless family fronting the Sun as an example of benefit-mad families for the jeering and stone-throwing of the crowds, I wonder?" :mad:

 

I've highlighted the point.... which seems to have been missed. No-one's having a go at people on Benefits. The thread is about Benefit cheats and in my recent posts.... people who churn out children while on Benefits to stay in the system and milk it. It's not about people who lose their jobs; people who've worked all their lives; single parents (like myself), or anythng else. In other words, it's not about so-called genuine people.

 

The media will spin what it wants to get us angry at each other instead of at the Gov. who've helped to create this mess. The Sun is (allegedly) aimed at those with a reading age of around 8 anyway... which should speak for itself.

[PriorityOne]

I'm sorry folks but the moment you go down the road of intervention in family life as we have recently seen you give a licence to those who want to sterilize or even in todays world genetically engineer humans to make them sterile much like GM crops Family life, anyones family good or bad, should be sacrosanct. Anything else smacks of the gas chambers

 

Family life stopped being sacrosanct when people realised the amount of abuse that went on within it JC. I take your point about dangerous kinds of intervention.... but as said previously, not everyone physically equipped to produce children makes a good parent and the state is left to pick up the tab for that, which is wrong.

[Bookworm]

There's too much diagnosis of ADHD, which is a social behavioural disorder... not a communication disorder. That sounds like something that's been chucked in along the way just to make it more plausible! Either that, or you're confusing it with something else that runs alongside ADHD without researching it properly. .

Sorry, but you're wrong:

 

http://www.ldawe.ca/DSM_IV.html

 

This is the clinical definition of ADHD. As you can see, behavioural issues are not even mentioned as part of the diagnosis, and I draw your attention to this sentence: "clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning." And please don't presume that I talk on the subject "without researching it properly", I wouldn't get very far in my advocacy role without knowing the ins and outs of the diagnostic and associated difficulties.

 

Yes, you're right, we are getting off topic in that aspect, BUT there is already too much stigma and finger-pointing going on as it is for me to let your assumptions unchallenged. The very fact that you posted on the subject on a thread which has to do with "benefit cheats" speaks volumes as it is.

[PriorityOne]

I do know about the clinical definition of ADHD Bookie... psychology is my area. You said it was a communication disorder. It isn't... it's behavioural. You can argue that social functioning is communication if you like, but it's not a communication disorder in the sense of a medical disability.... and it's a "diagnosis" (in children) that's spiralled out of control over recent years.

 

I'm not sure what "volumes" I'm meant to be speaking by going off topic. It happens in threads sometimes and I was merely acknowledging that fact.

[JonCris]

Family life stopped being sacrosanct when people realised the amount of abuse that went on within it JC. I take your point about dangerous kinds of intervention.... but as said previously, not everyone physically equipped to produce children makes a good parent and the state is left to pick up the tab for that, which is wrong.

 

Whats ths solution sterilization I assume or perhaps starvation because of a refusal to pay beneifts, whats the answer ??

Edited August 22, 2010 by JonCris

[Bookworm]

I do know about the clinical definition of ADHD Bookie... psychology is my area. You said it was a communication disorder. It isn't... it's behavioural. You can argue that social functioning is communication if you like, but it's not a communication disorder in the sense of a medical disability.... and it's a "diagnosis" (in children) that's spiralled out of control over recent years.

We could argue about it until the cows come home, and you'd still be mistaken. Even the DWP has finally accepted that impairments of social functioning goes hand in hand with arrested brain development and that it is in fact a medical disability. The behavioural difficulties arise from the communication disorder impairment.

 

It wasn't the OT stuff which I meant spoke volumes, it was the totality of the rant about supposedly mis-diagnosed children with cunning parents so well-versed in social communication disorders that they manage to fool the DWP, CAMHS, psychologists etc... into labelling their badly behaved child (who by definition if he's badly behaved wouldn't do what he's been told to do to fool the specialists anyway) with ADHD, and then are sooo clever that they manage in obtaining benefits that even people with more than an average level of education find hard to deal with. This from people who seemingly spend their time in front of Jeremy Kyle and Big Brother, and can barely read and write themselves. Impressive, no?

[PriorityOne]

Whats ths solution sterilization I assume or perhaps starvation because of a refusal to pay beneifts, whats the answer ??

 

No more money. If people continue to churn out children while on Benefits, then they manage that decision.

 

We could argue about it until the cows come home, and you'd still be mistaken. Even the DWP has finally accepted that impairments of social functioning goes hand in hand with arrested brain development and that it is in fact a medical disability. The behavioural difficulties arise from the communication disorder impairment.

 

You're getting this mixed up with something else Bookie. ADHD has nothing to do with arrested brain development and is not a medical disability. The behavioural disorders do not arise from communication disorder impairment with ADHD... autism yes, but not ADHD. The two can co-exist though... which I think is what you're trying to say... but it's not what I was on about.

 

It wasn't the OT stuff which I meant spoke volumes, it was the totality of the rant about supposedly mis-diagnosed children with cunning parents so well-versed in social communication disorders that they manage to fool the DWP, CAMHS, psychologists etc... into labelling their badly behaved child (who by definition if he's badly behaved wouldn't do what he's been told to do to fool the specialists anyway) with ADHD, and then are sooo clever that they manage in obtaining benefits that even people with more than an average level of education find hard to deal with. This from people who seemingly spend their time in front of Jeremy Kyle and Big Brother, and can barely read and write themselves. Impressive, no?

 

No disrespect, but you really have no idea.... and bad behaviour (which is what it is) is what they're looking for; not lack of communication (as aready said). Schools want to control the bad behaviour, as do parents.... so a "diagnosis" is really not that hard in our diagnosis society.

Edited August 22, 2010 by PriorityOne

[JonCris]

PO so your solution is starvation, homelessness or perhaps they should beg wadda you think 1, 2 or 3?

[Bookworm]

No disrespect, but you really have no idea.... and bad behaviour (which is what it is) is what they're looking for; not lack of communication (as aready said). Schools want to control the bad behaviour, as do parents.... so a "diagnosis" is really not that hard in our diagnosis society.

and how is the diagnosis going to help controlling the bad behaviour, may one ask? Ritalin? As it acts on the dopamin recipients in the brain, it has no effect whatsoever on non-ADHD kids. And not even that much on ADHd ones, unless you get the dosage just right.

 

SEN funding? Won't make any difference unless the teaching methods are specifically adapted to the individual condition.

 

So exactly HOW is falsely labelling a child going to help anyone, even if they manage to fool the professionals? (which we still haven't established HOW they were going to manage that one)

[PriorityOne]

PO so your solution is starvation, homelessness or perhaps they should beg wadda you think 1, 2 or 3?

 

Contraception JC...

 

and how is the diagnosis going to help controlling the bad behaviour, may one ask? Ritalin? As it acts on the dopamin recipients in the brain, it has no effect whatsoever on non-ADHD kids. And not even that much on ADHd ones, unless you get the dosage just right. It doesn't... it gives a label, which enables (some) parents to wash their hands of responsibility for that behavioiur because he/she "can't help it" As for Ritalin... it's prescribed like Smarties to kids these days... and seems to be ineffective in a lot of cases anyway. Anything that interferes with dopamine in the brain is a dodgy thing... schiziphrenia is also linked to dopamine, by the way... In years to come, society may live to regret putting so many kids on Ritalin...

 

SEN funding? Won't make any difference unless the teaching methods are specifically adapted to the individual condition. Teachers are leaving in droves because of behaviour in schools as it is. The funding just isn't there to support these kids which means that non-behaviour kids fall back; SEN or otherwise.

 

So exactly HOW is falsely labelling a child going to help anyone, even if they manage to fool the professionals? (which we still haven't established HOW they were going to manage that one)

 

It serves to hide the underlying (social) issue which I've been talking about from the start and give it a label.... and you don't have to "fool" professionals looking for behaviour if that behaviour is already there to observe...

Edited August 22, 2010 by PriorityOne

[JonCris]

& what if it doesn't work its not fool proof ya know

[PriorityOne]

& what if it doesn't work its not fool proof ya know

 

Are kids the new guinea pigs then JC? Where does the informed consent come into it? It doesn't. Parents have it. "ADHD" is often offered as a diagnosis for behaviour caused by childhood trauma/abuse.... and not linked to a medical condition at all.

 

The most common cause amongst kids I work with however, is that many have been plonked in front of games consoles from a very young age until their brains have gone to mush.

 

As a little social experiment, you try playing fast-paced and/or violent computer games for hours on end and then look at your mood and concentration.... ADHD is a sign of the times which has exploded as a "diagnosis" of unacceptable behaviour amongst kids over the years, but medical it ain't.

Edited August 23, 2010 by PriorityOne

[Bookworm]

ADHD is a sign of the times which has exploded as a "diagnosis" of unacceptable behaviour amongst kids over the years, but medical it ain't.

 

Scientific studies have shown that people said to be suffering from ADHD have lowered electrical activity in the area of the brain called the 'frontal lobe', which is the region of the brain located behind the forehead. Additionally, there is a measurable and a reduced reaction to stimulation in this area of the brain. To illustrate this, scientists have been able to conduct neuro-imaging studies, which create visible pictures of brain activity. These images show that sufferers of ADHD have less brain matter in the frontal lobe region of the brain and a lower level of metabolic activity than 'normal' people.

 

Added to this evidence are studies of identical and fraternal twins, where one twin exhibits symptoms of ADHD and the other does not. These studies have shown that there is a genetic predisposition for ADHD, and one particular gene has already been identified; the search is on for more.

 

Furthermore, while parenting skills and other stressful life and environmental events will have an effect on a child's behaviour, this detailed study of twins has allowed researchers to determine that the family environment does not appear to make a significant and separate contribution as to whether a child will exhibit ADHD behavioural traits.

 

Also:

 

http://www.articlealley.com/article_479972_23.html (written by a psychiatrist whose speciality is ADD/ADHD).

 

You especially could benefit from reading this other article written by him:

 

http://www.articlealley.com/article_515557_23.html

 

and maybe consider it's time for you to let go of stage 1 and move on to stage 2? ;-)

[PriorityOne]

We can all fling articles offering different opinions into the arena Bookie.... The Sun does it all the time... lol

 

It's not assessed through medical tests despite what your article implies. Does your article claim that thousands of children are tested? I suspect not. Psychologists observe behaviour and ask questions; it's subjective measurement. There are no blood tests, urine tests, brain scans en masse or anything else.....

 

Keep reading.... your article sounds like the kind of justification used to carry out frontal lobotomies years ago.... lol. Here's one of mine to balance it out... :

 

http://adhd-children.com/doctors-under-fire-as-an-alarming-numbers-of-children-are-given-drugs-to-combat-depression-and-adhd/

 

And another...

 

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/164/10/1612

 

As a society and as parents, we owe it to our kids to be fully informed before giving them anti-psychotic drugs en masse, don't you think?

 

Personally, I wouldn't touch these drugs with a barge pole!

Edited August 23, 2010 by PriorityOne
link

[redrum3wins]

Re the original question...the Court process is in the public domain. The newspapers decide which cases to publish, not the prosecuting authority. As a Fraud Investigator I hear all the time that the only punishment people fear is getting their name in the papers, so I must admit I actively encourage our local rag to attend some days when I've got cases in court. I might even issue a press release, but I can't decidde if it's published or not.

 

It's part of the Justice system, anyone can turn up and view the workings of a court, including the press.

Hello tabs666, I think your line of reasoning is 'sick'. There are many people whom would rather be dead than to be made a public spectacle of. Yes, people do fall on hard times and debts rise. As a result, someone may find the only way of trying to lighten their heavy load a little is to do something they normally would not do. (ok, a goody two shoes like yourself may never have fallen on bad times, but we all know that even ones whom govern or have governed the society in which we live have fallen on hard times and done things that they would never do in normal circumstances) This could and I am quite sure may well result in people taking their own lives. When people feel that they are trapped in poverty, to then put them through something like a figurative 'Public execution' is sick thinking. Remember, one day, you too may fall upon desperate times. Do you have no empathy for anyone except yourself?

Edited August 23, 2010 by redrum3wins
grammar

[JonCris]

What?? 52,000 benefit cheats prosecuted under a Labout Government?. That can't be true!. Everyone knows that The Labour Government encouraged people to defraud the benefits system!!.

 

Once you realize that Labour's use of the word 'prosecuted' does NOT mean all or many where prosecuted in a court of law it means investigated & many have either been found not guilty, its just been some jealous neighbour making false allegations, OR they have managed with difficulty, (much of it caused by the DWP), to obtain legal representation & the lawyer after doing the sums finds them either grossly exaggerated or even that had they claimed the correct benefits they would have been better off

[babybear39]

"There, for the grace of God..."

Edited August 23, 2010 by babybear39
oops

[babybear39]

I would NEVER lower myself or profession to report about this issue. Personally, I have done quite a lot of research into the subject and most caught doing it are mortified, and it is mostly related to spiralling debt. Some, however, do take the pee.

 

Before you cast the first stone, be VERY sure you've NEVER sinned

[JonCris]

I would NEVER lower myself or my profession to report about people who have fallen on hard times!!! "There, for the grace of God..."

 

Good for you BB I get so peed off with the holier than thou of some many of who appear to have forgotten why they came here in the 1st place

[JonCris]

I would NEVER lower myself or profession to report about this issue. Personally, I have done quite a lot of research into the subject and most caught doing it are mortified, and it is mostly related to spiralling debt. Some, however, do take the pee.

 

Before you cast the first stone, be VERY sure you've NEVER sinned

 

The best & most efficient way to solve this countries debts is to go after the tax dodgers both illegal & so called legal Its been calculated that the amount recovered could by far exceed that paid in benefits

[babybear39]

If all the banks that the Gov bailed out repaid thier debts, after reading some of the profits they're now making, it would cut the deficit or even maybe put UK in credit

[Bookworm]

As a society and as parents, we owe it to our kids to be fully informed before giving them anti-psychotic drugs en masse, don't you think?

 

Personally, I wouldn't touch these drugs with a barge pole!

I don't think I ever said otherwise, did I? I also know that for some of these kids, it is the ONLY way they have been able to get their condition under any kind of control. That however has nothing to do with the benefit cheats, or the supposed mis-diagnosis you claim happens so much.

 

Keep reading? Not just that, I attend seminars, support groups, conferences as well, which is why I know that the idea of ADHD as behavioural condition is about as discredited nowadays as Bettelheim's fridge-mother theory to explain autism. Oh, I know that some people will never accept that, but then I believe that some people also still believe that God created it all, and that doesn't make it true either. ;-)