Mint-Moorcroft-now First Credit !!!!

[europa16]

....

Edited August 21, 2008 by europa16
not in right place (dates messed up)

[europa16]

I originally posted a quickie in the CCA vs Application thread, and thought I'd better start my own little thread.

 

I originally CCA'd Mint earlier this year and got a copy of the application form and the T&Cs form that year. A copy of the application is here...

 

Image of Mint Application - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

 

Anyway, I wrote back to them pointing out all the many ways this didn't comply, and I got a reply back. This is a summary of what they have to say...

 

* They confirm they complied with the CCA 1974 as I received the application form (their words), and applicable T&Cs for that year, along with a statement for the month I defaulted and a current statement (but no default notice?)

 

* Comment regarding signature on the application form (again, their words)... that "the provision of the true copy in this form is made in reliance of regs 3(2) and 7(1) of the CC regs 1983. Particularly 3(2) which permits the copy agreement not to show signatures or personal details that may have appeared on the application part of the document. There is no statutory requirement under the act for us to ever give a copy to a customer with a signature on it".

 

* They have given me another copy of the same application form with the "Credit Agreement regulated..blah blah blah" bit at the top and in the signature box highlighted for my "ease of reference" (so it must be true!).

 

So guys, they think this is enforceable, my hubby isn't sure, and I'm still not convinced. Are they correct or pulling a fast one?

 

All advice and comments are welcome

[phill123]

no they are not for me iot is an application form . an aplication form is an application not a confirmation that you had a credit card with mint. althoughthis is only my opinion if i was report them to the relevant authority. good luck

[Curlyben]

OK so where are the prescribed terms ??

 

 

S61(1)(a) CCA provides that, for a regulated agreement to be properly executed, it must contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement and conform to regulations under s60(1) – see Q1.14.

 

Reg 6(1) provides that the terms specified in Sch 6 to the Agreements Regulations are ‘prescribed terms’ for the purposes of s61(1)(a) and s127(3) – see Q8.2.

 

8.2 What if prescribed terms are missing or incorrect?

 

s127(3) provides that the court may not make an enforcement order unless a document containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor – see Q1.21.

 

If therefore any of the prescribed terms is missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor, and the court is precluded from making an enforcement order.

 

 

8.3 What are the prescribed terms?

 

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows:

 

* amount of credit – see Q8.

 

* credit limit – see Q8.5

* repayments – see Q8.9.

* rate of interest – see Q8.6

 

Sch 6 was not amended by the 2004 Regulations.

 

 

Also check out Peter Bard's excellent thread on the subject: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/103383-agreement-enforceability.html

[pt2537]

they can gloss it up as much as they like.

 

ITS AN APPLICATION form and unless it was signed on the lenders premises its unenforcable under s59(1) CCA 1974

 

in addition as CB points out, there are no prescribed terms

 

so again TOTALLY UTTERLY COMPLETELY UNENFORCABLE

 

 

time to give em a kick me thinks

[sequenci]

ITS AN APPLICATION form and unless it was signed on the lenders premises its unenforcable under s59(1) CCA 1974

 

excactly. I was just about to post that too.

[pt2537]

haha beat you too it

[europa16]

So, we're in agreement - it IS an application despite their little highlighter pen doing overtime on the "regulated consumer credit..." bits?

 

Funnily enough, I did point out all the relevant bits of the CCA and the regs, including the prescribed terms (took 2 pages - wish I'd saved my ink seeing as they ignored it).So, should I kick 'em softly, or get my steel toe caps on?

 

Also, how far should I go with this and will they eventually crack? Gonna send a letter to the FOS, but is it worth forwarding one to anyone else?

 

Thanks

 

p.s. they said they are quite entitled to keep processing my data and the default at the CRAs. There is a bit on the application form under Data Protection Act which says they will use the CRAs for the usual stuff, but can they?

[pt2537]

YES Trading Standards for starters

[europa16]

Letter winging its way to the Financial Ombudsman. Which TS should I complain to - theirs (Southend-on-Sea) or mine?

 

Thanks

[The GodMother]

I would advice someone bys this company some glasses.

 

At the top of the form it says

 

Please complete your application form by answering all the questions below in BLOCK CAPITALS.

 

What part of that says CCA?

 

You should complain to your TS and see what they say.

 

I would also inform Mint in writing that you are complaining to the relivant bodies.

[shane5408]

Letter winging its way to the Financial Ombudsman. Which TS should I complain to - theirs (Southend-on-Sea) or mine?

 

Thanks

 

 

you need to write to your local TS, if required they will then liase with the one nearer the Creditor

 

regards,

shane

[europa16]

Thanks Shane, I shall get onto it.

[europa16]

An update:

 

I complained to the FOS and Trading Standards, as suggested. The FOS have assigned a case number for it, and I'm waiting for the officer assigned to it to contact me. As for TS they basically said they would wait to see what happens wih FOS before intervening, if at all! I haven't bothered to tell Mint what I've done, but I'm sure they'll find out soon enough...

 

One of Mint's sporadic credit card statements came through the post today, no change in amount (not paid since they defaulted on the CCA request). At least it shows they've not sold the debt on yet (which I'm half expecting in the near future )

 

Anyone know how long these FOS investigations take, and what they do?

 

Also, should I sent Mint a Section 10/12 Data Protection Act yet?

 

Thanks

[europa16]

Mint have sent me a final demand for the full amount and expect me to pay it within the next 14 days or it will go to the debt collectors.

 

Considering they didn't comply with my CCA request (application form!) and I've referred it to the FOS who are investigating, I am a little surprised -don't think anyone told the automated printer that spits this stuff out!!

 

I need to write to them asap and put them firmly in their place, but I am having a little trouble finding a suitable template to adapt or get some pointers from. Can anybody point me in the right direction?

 

Thanks in advance.

[The GodMother]

Europa,

 

You may want to use my custom made letter for this sort of thing.

 

Dear idiot.

 

Thank you for the illegal deafult notice as you may or may not be aware, due to your high levels of bull hooks and incompitence, you are actually the ones who are in legal deafult of a valid CCA request.

 

On the XX/ XX/ 2007/8 l made a request to you for my CCA and all you idiots sent me was a APPLICATION FORM under the CCA of 1974 that does not conform to the rules.

 

On XX/ XX/2007/8 I wrote to you informing you that you had not complied and you have been adament that a APPLICATION FORM is a CCA. Well as a bunch of incompitent idiots you obviously cant read and as a result dont know the law.

 

I have informed Trading standards, The oft and FOS of this matter and as a result of this the FOS have launched and investigation and you will be changed the minimum of £400.00 for the privilage of them investigating you.

 

I feel it is in your best interests to drop this WITH IMMEDIATE EFFECT and dont try and chase me for this debt again. Especially as you have put default charges to the sum of £XXXXX which you are only allowed to charge me if you have a valid CCA.

 

I would like to thank you for taking the time to write to me and display your high level of incompitence.

 

Yours

 

Europa 16

 

You may want to put anything that l have highlighted in a different colour as that may draw there attention to it.

 

If you use this letter then remember the naorm, dontsign and post recorded delivary at least.

 

I wont be offended if you dont use the letter l just wrote it to have fun and to make ppl smile.

 

Chrissi

[Curlyben]

Throw this at them.

 

Formal Complaint

Letter before Action

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

With reference to my previous letters, I wish to draw you attention to your company's lack of compliance with my legal request.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.

 

As you may not be aware , failure to comply with this request within 12 working days renders the alleged debt UNENFORCEABLE in law. Furthermore, if this non-compliance continues for a further month then a summary, criminal offence is committed.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a compliant credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* may not pass the account to a third party.

* may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

After taking advice, I am of the opinion that your continued pursuit is in violation of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40, Protection from harassment Act 1997 section 3 as well as breaching a number of the OFT Collection Guidelines.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you would prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I await your rapid response.

 

Yours Faithfully

[europa16]

Thanks Godmother and Curlyben.

 

That's exactly the sort of letter i was looking for

 

I shall piece together a nice stern reply to their final demand, although I am sorely tempted to address it to "idiots", lol... actually better not as I'll be sending a copy to the FOS to add to my complaint against Mint.

 

Let's hope they get the message this time

[The GodMother]

yes lets.

[humbleman]

Europa

 

With respect you can send them whatever letter you want, makes no difference to them. Unless you hit the right person with something different. They will pass this onto Triton or another DCA, the to Greens solicitor and then to AIC not necessarily in the same order.

 

Anyway keep us informed since majority of ppl, including myself are in the same situation as yourself.

 

IMO

[europa16]

Well, if they do send it to a DCA, they will be informed of the situation and hopefully they'll toss it back to Mint. They'd be daft not to (but the again DCAs aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the box, are they )

 

Anyway, letter sorted out and waiting to be sent on Monday morning to Mint and FOS (and maybe the OFT). Can't wait for their reply...

[europa16]

I got a letter back from both the FOS and Mint today.

 

FOS have added it to my case file, and Mint are not prepared to discuss the matter further with me until the FOS finish their investigation as it would be "inappropriate".

 

I've heard these investigations can take nearly a year to complete, so I don't know what's happening with the final demand they sent me. They didn't say...

 

Is there anyone who's been in a similar position with their credit card provider/bank giving them an application form instead of an agreement, and the FOS has concluded their investigation? What was the outcome? What should I expect?

 

Thanks

[europa16]

I had a phone call today from Wescot Financial, asking me to ring back on a 0870 number. It seems Mint have passed over the account to them to collect. I haven't spoken to them or Mint yet. There's also a nice threat-o-gram from them.

 

Are Mint really stupid enough to think I'm not going to forward this to the FOS and TS?

 

Wescot should pass this back, shouldn't they?

[europa16]

An Update so far...

 

Back in March I got a demand from Wescot regarding this account, so I sent them a "in dispute so pass it back if you don't want to get involved" letter. It seemed to work and they shut they file and gave it back to Mint.

 

All's been quiet until this week, when finally the FOS got in touch to say they are now investigating my complaint. Hopefully I won't have to wait another 7 months for they response.

 

I would love to know what others have been told in response to a complaint about their application forms.

[europa16]

I got a reply back from the FOS regarding this matter, and it looks like they're siding with RBS on this

 

They've basically said that they think my complaint would be unsuccessful as RBS have said they supplied me with all the necessary paperwork and that the debt is still payable by me.

 

As for unenforceability, they reckon a court would have to decide on the legalities because they can't, and that RBS have a right to apply interest to the debt still.

 

I'm fuming. My other half thinks I should just roll over and take it. But I'm sure I'm right in saying that this agreement is not legal and totally unenforceable.

 

What next??