Money paid into wrong account

[julian1957]

My son received a letter from the Abbey enclosing a letter from a company he's never heard of. It seems this company has paid £352 in somebody else's wages into his account by mistake and are demanding it back. They gave the Abbey the wrong account number and the bank are not to blame; in fact, the Abbey say they can't return the money without his authority and have asked him to contact this company to sort it out.

 

Straightforward you might think, except that the money went in in 4 payments of £80-£90 per week for 4 weeks and he hasn't yet had a statement even showing them (nor does he have online banking). He has recently stopped claiming Housing Benefit as his girlfriend has moved from a college course to working and he was expecting the last benefit payment(s) to go into his account, with no idea how much that would be. When he saw his balance on the cash machine screen he had no cause to suspect anything was wrong and has thus spent money on things he wouldn't have bought otherwise. Hardly surprising he didn't notice in view of the 4 smallish amounts.

 

The upshot of it is that he can't authorise the Abbey to repay the whole amount in one go as he can't afford it. Also, I feel he's been seriously wronged as nobody could reasonably have expected him to have noticed but he's spent money on things he wouldn't have done otherwise and the company who made the error should be made to take this into account???? In addition, he's quite upset by it, being very inexperienced in financial matters and then there's the time, trouble, cost of calls seeking advice etc. So point 1 is that I feel he should be able to charge them for what is, after all, 100% their error, i.e. pay back less than the full £352 after taking such matters into consideration. Opinions on this gratefully received!

 

Secondly, however, is what happened when I tried to help out by phoning this company at my son's request. They refused to discuss the matter at all UNLESS I give them a name. So they already have my son's bank details and now they want his name (or at least my name, which gives them his surname); this is about 50% of the way towards a dishonest person in their office carrying out identity theft. We are constantly being warned how careful we should be in revealing information about ourselves in case of identity theft yet this company, whose incompetence is the SOLE cause of these problems, are demanding to know the name of the innocent person whose account they paid into by mistake or they won't discuss the matter. I find this totally outrageous - what do you think?

 

It seems to me that my son is caught between a rock and a hard place. Barring the deduction of a reasonable amount for his costs and trouble, there's no dispute that the money should be repaid. Yet they won't discuss the matter without having enough personal details to force him to change his bank account for security reasons.

 

So what do they do next? He fears a police car turning up and taking him away for fraud or something despite the fact that reasonable efforts have been made to deal with something that was not his fault and the fact that this company has frustrated those efforts by demanding information to which they are not entitled. A recently retired police officer has advised us not to give a name for exactly the reason stated above by the way, but has no idea what the local police would do if this company made a complaint.

 

Any advice on how to handle this would be received with massive gratitude.

[patdavies]

Firstly, rest assured that the Police will not turn up on the doorstep. The company have made a mistake, there is no fraud involved. The very worst that could happen is a county court summons as this is a purely civil matter - but even that is some time off. Whilst the money will probably have to be repaid, the company are not entitled to it as a lump sum.

 

How old is your son? Why is he not managing this for himself?

 

How much difference are these payments to his normal weekly income? If they add a significant amount of money unexpectedly, then a court will rule that a reasonable man should have been aware and order repayment. If they were not a 'significant sum' in comparison or there was reason to expect such payments form another source, then a court may rule that it was not unreasonable to spend the money and the company cannot now reclaim it.

 

At some stage, he will have to talk to them but he doesn't need to give them any details that they do not already have - such as address or dob. As for giving his name, all they need to know (and be told) is that he is Mr Surname.

[julian1957]

Thanks for taking the time to give such a considered reply. To answer one question first, this is my youngest son and his 2 brothers would need no help on something like this! He's 19 and rather shy and easily tongue-tied when confronted by someone claiming to have some kind of special knowledge or authority. If they said black was white, he'd probably believe it. Even if he didn't believe it was white he still wouldn't know if it was really black, green or pink. I feel that if I can't help him out with this then I'm not doing my bit very well.

 

My concern about the police was that I heard of a case where someone spent a huge sum mistakenly placed in their account (more like £100,000 than £352). Apparently they were charged with theft and with "receiving false credit" - I don't know if anyone else has heard of that offence????

 

I have now learned that the 4 amounts totalling £352 went into his account on his own pay day. He works different hours from week to week and thus gets overtime; being young he's not all that good at remembering what he's due either. Add to that the expectation of the final housing benefit payments and it's totally clear that there was no way of spotting that anything was wrong. He just thought he was "a bit more flush this week" and seems to have spent money on such things as an extra round for his mates on a Saturday night. Certainly, there's no way this extra money could be considered a "significant sum" nor could spending it be regarded as unreasonable in my view.

 

Final question for anyone in the know. If we decide to make life difficult for these people, who have caused the problem and been totally unreasonable when I tried to deal with it, how can they LEGALLY obtain the name of the account holder? This is rather important, not because there's any intention to avoid repaying ANY of the money but because I intend to make sure he repays £352 less something for his trouble and does so as and when he can afford it. At the moment we hold all the cards, providing anonymity is maintained. If that goes then they can get nasty, which I get the impression is exactly what they'd do.

 

Once again, thanks for your help.

[Goldlady]

Hi Julian, it is massive incompetence on the part of whoever made the payments. We do payrolls by BACS etc on behalf of clients and now and then we make a mistake. For it to have gone on for four weeks is ridiculous. However I am fully aware that if an error is made by me I will be responsible for the lost money if the person receiving it refuses to pay it back. So far this has not happened but my feeling is that they cannot legally ask your son to pay it back - and are they really going to go to court for 300 quid or so?

[julian1957]

I wouldn't be surprised if they went to court in view of their attitude when I phoned them - "we won't talk to you about it without a name" is hardly the way to behave when you're 100% in the wrong and someone has called to discuss YOUR error!

 

Intriguingly, their letter to the bank referred to a telephone conversation that they'd already had with the bank and requested the return of the money via BACS!!!! You have to wonder what they were told by the Abbey's call centre on the phone but it was probably completely wrong! However, they have probably been given the impression by someone with little idea what they're talking about that they'd get the money back without any problem, regardless of the inconvenience that it's causing in the real world....

 

To show how interested the Abbey really are in this matter, their letter to my son ran to 3 short sentences, was unsigned (not even signed p.p.) and enclosed NOT a copy of the company's letter to them but the ORIGINAL!!!! They'd crossed out the number of the account into which the money should have been paid and written "security purpose" by the crossing out. However, you can still clearly see that account number as they haven't crossed it out very well and they didn't cross out the name of the person whose account it is! Great "security" by the Abbey!!!!

 

Which I guess is a factor in that question that I'd so like to have answered, i.e. how can this company get my son's name LEGALLY. I wouldn't put it past the Abbey to give it to them through sheer stupidity but getting it legally is another matter.

[OrangePrimate]

If this Company were to find out your sons name or account details via the Abbey, the bank would be in BIG trouble! it would be a major breach of the Data Protection Act. They cannot disclose that information to anyone but certain authorities (certain police depts, customs & excise etc). If they cannot get that information, who are they going to take action against?!

Your son has done no wrong, the Abbey has done no wrong, let the Company whistle for it i say!! (although in this situation myself may offer them back half of it as a goodwill gesture!! but getting the bank to do it so they still didnt find out who i was!)

[Chesterexpress]

I don't see the problem in giving them your name, they can't do anything with the account by having it. Why not be sensible about this and just agree to pay it ALL back, either in one lump or if he really can't afford to do that, then in 2/3 monthly payments. Mistakes happen, and I am sure that you would want it repaid if it were you who had made the mistake.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I'd write to the company and ask them to send you 35 stamped adressed envelopes and explain that you (your son) will pay it back at the rate of £10 per week (£12 final week).

[davethorp]

I'd send them packing. No crime has been committed. It was their error. Due to the small sum involved the OP's son reasonably assumed the money was his. In the case of the woman who had £100000 there was no way she could have reasonably assumed it was her money.

 

Most importantly from what the OP has said, the company have no clue as to where the money went apart from a bank account number. They don't know their name, address or telephone number. Hardly going to be able to collect or send a county court summons.

 

Ultimately it is down to where your and/or your son's morals lie as to whether you pay them back but you are certainly under no obligation and the company concerned can't expect it in one go. Personally if I was going to pay it back (and if this happened to me I wouldn't be doing) I'd send them a token payment of £1 a month and they could count themselves lucky they got that

[Chesterexpress]

davethorp, they are most certainly under an obligation to return the money. As for not knowing the name etc. they could apply to the court to have the bank release the information. Therefore your advice is extremely poor.

[davethorp]

davethorp, they are most certainly under an obligation to return the money. As for not knowing the name etc. they could apply to the court to have the bank release the information. Therefore your advice is extremely poor.

 

If that's the case I think I'll start paying all my bills by bank transfer and then realise I'd sent the payment in mistake and point out the companies obligation to return the money to me. Wonder how far that will get me

[Planner]

davethorp, they are most certainly under an obligation to return the money. As for not knowing the name etc. they could apply to the court to have the bank release the information. Therefore your advice is extremely poor.

 

The company can ask the bank to release the details under section 35 of the data protection act, I would be extremley surprised if the bank didnt tell them where to go (and if they did give the details out I would be screaming to the Information Comm before the letter had hit the mat). The company would then have to apply for a court order for release of information under section 35 of the act (a process which will cost in itself), i doubt that the court would grant such an order as I doubt they would agree that £352 overides schedule 2 and 3 of the act and the basic right to privacy in European law.

 

I dont have a position on if it should be paid back.

[julian1957]

Thanks everyone for showing such interest in this. I think that to avoid any doubt I should give my position on whether it should be paid back:-

 

We are totally honest people and didn't ask for all this trouble. If my son had noticed it at the time then I'd expect it to be fully returned. However, as explained previously, he has spent some of it on things he wouldn't have spent money on with no reason to question that all the money in his account was his. Why should an inexperienced youngster think "Oh, some idiots have paid someone else's wages into my account by mistake" instead of thinking "I'm a bit more flush than I thought I was"? I know what I'd have thought when I was that age!

 

As far as I'm concerned, there is thus good reason to offer to repay less than the full amount as otherwise he'll effectively have lost out - the money spent has gone forever and replacing it would mean cutting back on necessities. Also, there's the time, trouble and cost of dealing with it so far, which also should be deducted.

 

Beyond those points, yes, they should get the rest back, but at his convenience and in a way that ensures they don't get his name, again for reasons previously stated.

 

However, the attitude of the company responsible for all this has led to more people being consulted, more calls being made to try to get more information etc etc. This should all be taken into account - in other words, if I make a 15 minute phone call to someone about this that I wouldn't have made if the company hadn't refused to talk to me when I called them, then the cost of that call is another amount to deduct. Clearly, those responsible for the original problem and for exacerbating it must expect to pay all the costs involved in resolving it.

 

I'm going to post again later as I'm waiting for a call from my son's girlfriend, who has had a long chat with the Citizens Advice Bureau today. I've had the very basic details of what they said and, believe me, it's surprising!

 

Once again, thanks everyone.

[IdaInFife]

I don't think they can take it back.

 

Did you receive a letter from the bank asking his permission? If so refuse.

They are asking to padd on your details to the company.

 

I had a similar position at work where they had overpaid me a few others. (paid us overtime that we had not put in for)

 

We were all sent letters asking whether we would pay it back.

 

Them that responded yes and agreed, paid it . Me and a few other didn't respond and were never asked again. i am trying to find the info i got on it.

 

I think basically it is up to your son if he wants to pay it back or not.

 

£1 per month seems reasonable for the lack of security!

 

idax

[IdaInFife]

by the way... if you pay by online banking it clearly tells you that any payments you make to the wrong account cannot be reversed if the details are wrong!

 

bacs are no different!

 

Idax

[Goldlady]

I am sure you are right Ida. I know on the couple of occasions where I have paid the wrong person my clients have told me that if the recipient won't pay it back then I will be responsible. Fortunately for me the people have refunded it, but then these are fellow employees not total strangers, and they would have received a payslip showing how much they should have been paid. If you couldn't be expected to know the payments were wrong then you are not to blame and can't be pursued for it IMHO.

[julian1957]

Well, I'm still waiting for some further details that the Citizens Advice Bureau have told my son's girlfriend they can supply. No idea what kind of info that can be in view of what else they've said, but I await it with interest. But here's a precis what they said:-

 

They have never heard of a case of a company managing to pay someone's wages into the wrong account FOUR times before it was noticed (they went right through their database and can find nothing like it). They believe that this is a fraud and have told my son not to contact the company AT ALL, let alone give them any kind of info about himself. He should go to his bank and ask them to thoroughly check if anything strange has happened other than this money appearing, or if any attempt has been made to access his account in any way. They also suggested there might be an attempt being made to clone his account and specifically used the word "[problem]" to describe what they think is going on.

 

When he told me this, I wanted to tear my hair out (what little hair remains anyway). The things I can be 100% sure about are:-

 

1) The Abbey's letter, though unsigned, is on their headed paper (and the right paper at that, not just any old A4 paper with the Abbey's header printed on it - I'm an Abbey customer myself and am sure about this). The phone number is correct, the address is correct and their "Ref" is in the correct format of letters, numbers and slashes. The CAB, on the other hand, are basically suggesting that this letter is a fake.

 

2) The company that has paid this money into my son's account may be unbelievably incompetent but they are a real company that has been around for a mere 140 years (easily established from their website). They have hundreds of employees. The reason why my son hadn't heard of them is probably because they operate solely in a part of the UK with which he has no connections. One of my other two sons had heard of them because he knows that part of the country and the other son knew them because he works for one of their rivals. Also, the person who wrote the letter to the bank that the Abbey have forwarded really does work in their accounts department - the one thing I managed to establish during my unsuccessful telephone conversation with them.

 

So, whatever this is, I can't see it being a [problem]. My concern about my son's anonymity is to prevent a dishonest individual from having both his surname and account number and acting dishonestly but independently of the company after that info came his/her way. The CAB have basically told my son that they believe this to be a pre-planned fraud with some dishonest objective or other (who knows what????).

 

I really don't know what to do next as my son has taken this on board. If I tell him that I think the CAB are talking nonsense and by some fluke I'm wrong (e.g. the company is being "used" by one or more dishonest employee(s)) then I'm going to be vilified as the person who went against the advice of the CAB and fouled up. To be frank, however, I really do think they're advice is complete garbage and extremely unhelpful therefore in dealing with the REAL situation....

 

Comments anyone? I'm still trying to think it through.

[Goldlady]

I would agree with you that it is unlikely that fraud is involved - the amount is just too small, unless they were planning on bigger things. But I would also agree with the CAB that for it to have gone on for four weeks is more than a little strange. With my clients if someone's pay isn't in the account by 9am on the due date they are on the phone to me. I would wait and see what the CAB come up with:confused:. And it is unlikely that they would go the extent of exactly copying the Abbey letters and using the name of a real person - although these days anything is possible.

 

I guess all you can really do is wait and see. I seriously think your son should not have to repay this money - after all he did nothing wrong and it is human nature to spend a windfall if you are living on the breadline:p

[IdaInFife]

maybe an idea to close that acc and set up new acc so you have a new account number. no harm in doing that and would put to rest any potential '[problem]' although i think it's more of incompentence of the payroll dept that made the payments.

 

in fact the more i think about...get your son down to the bank on Monday and get his acc number changed ........

 

i think cab may be being over caustious but it is a possibilty.

 

personally i would refuse the bank permission to pass on your details .. i can't see what the company can do after that.

 

 

 

Idax

[julian1957]

I also agree with the CAB that it's incredible that it went on for four weeks undetected. I'd speculate that the intended recipient of the money is a new employee working part-time who was as naive as they come in failing to spot and report the lack of wages in his account for so long. Or if he did report it, they must have heaped incompetence on incompetence by taking ages to work out what had gone wrong, whilst continuing to allow it to happen with future weeks' wages.

 

I'll certainly suggest to my son that he should change his bank account, although he shouldn't really have been put in a position where he may need to do this.

 

As for refusing the bank permission to pass on the details, well, they've said in their letter that they can't refund the money without authorisation (which they won't get as this would involve refunding it all in one go) and this thread has already covered the breach that would be committed if they just told the company who the account holder is. I can't see how they could be told that they don't have permission to do something that they should know they're not legally allowed to do anyway!!!!???? And, sadly, there's always the problem of dealing with the Abbey that comes with a bank running foreign call centres with accents that are difficult to understand and people who often can't think "outside the box" of their basic training. Nothing against them personally but I know from experience how frustrating it can be to deal with a bank these days.

 

I'm hoping for a day off from this now but I'll update as and when something happens, possibly the arrival of this mysterious "further info" from the CAB. Once again, thanks everyone for your interest and help.

[Shanks]

I have to say that I have been reading this thread with growing astonishment. I simply cannot believe some of the comments and advice that is being given here.

 

Let’s start with the basic situation – in a nutshell, a company has, in error paid money into your son’s account. They have now realised their mistake and have written to your son asking for it back.

 

Where on earth in the above process has your son been “seriously wronged”?

 

They would have no other information about the account holder (your son in this case) other than the account number. With only that to go on, they have identified the bank concerned which would be easy, and then written to the bank asking that that they pass on their request for the repayment of funds to the account holder.

 

Again, so far this has all been done in a way that respects his privacy and would enable him to repay the money quickly and without compromise.

 

In response to their letter you have telephoned them (something this site rarely recommends in any circumstances) and they have quite rightly in my opinion, asked you to identify yourself. This is a straight forward and commonly accepted way if protecting all parties concerned and making sure that they are not discussing the matter with just anyone who calls. Would you have been happier if they had just proceeded to discuss the whole matter without first checking out who you were?

 

I really don’t see this as “totally outrageous”

 

You have not answered patdavies’ question about what sort of difference £90 odd pounds would have made to his normal or expected weekly pay. Although you do mention that he is 19, shy, easily tongue tied and was recently claiming housing benefit. Without any other details or, in fact an answer to the above question it may be safe to assume that he is not in the top earnings bracket at the moment. He was expecting a rebate so, certainly based on the argument of ‘reasonableness’ anyone could easily say that he would not be surprised to see a unexpected increase in his bank balance on the first week. And being 19 he, like many here at that age, as you say would have just thought ‘he was a bit more flush that he expected’ and went and enjoyed it. I can certainly see that.

 

But do you really think he thought the same on the second week and then again on the third week and then yet again on the fourth week without ever thinking ‘hang on a moment I haven’t done that much overtime’. I know you said he was financially naïve but I think you are both stretching credibility a bit here. Of course this may be a wrong assumption and he might well be earning so much that £90 a week would not be noticeable. But then I suspect that repaying this would not mean him having to “cut back on necessities”.

 

You have already stated that you are honest people and I have no reason to think you are not, so why not just offer to pay the money back? If you are so concerned about security and identity theft get an address from them and send some postal orders. Or ask the Abbey to transfer the funds to a holding account and then pass the funds back that way. It may cost a few quid and I am sure if you explained it the company they would happily let you deduct any costs from the total repaid. I cannot understand why there has been the need for all the “time, effort and consultation” to reach the conclusion that you stated in your first post you were happy to do anyway. And consequently why this company should have to reimburse you for the costs for your unnecessary ‘pre-repayment investigation’

 

Given a reasonable approach, they already realise it was their mistake which started this off so I am sure they would accept repayment in instalments over a period of time.

 

You could of course take davethorpe’s advice, but do you or your son really want him to paying of this ‘extra round for his mates’ until he is almost 50?

 

As for Goldlady’s comment...

after all he did nothing wrong and it is human nature to spend a windfall if you are living on the breadline

Clearly current law would disagree with you in most cases.

 

Goldlady - if you found a wallet full of cash in the street would you take the same view? I mean the owner made a stupid mistake and should have taken more care not to drop it but does that mean you have the right to spend it.

 

With regard to it being a [problem], they have paid money into your son’s account and you are going to say ok we’ll repay it but we are going to deduct some costs first. They lose money. The best possible outcome for them was that you repay the whole amount so they end up no better off. I really can’t see this going down as one of the greatest scams but again if you are that concerned talk to the bank and I am sure they will help you to address the matter sufficiently without any real inconvenience. Although if you ring them be prepared for them to ask who you are before they discuss the matter with you.

 

Just for your information I think the case you referred to was the one of Sarah Lee who had £135,000 credited to her account which she duly spent with great gusto and now looks like she will pay for it. See here Mother lands a £135,000 windfall in bank blunder...and blows it in weeks| News | This is London and here BBC NEWS | Magazine | Can I spend that mysterious windfall?

 

I cannot find the final outcome – it has been referred to crown court so it may not have been settled yet.

[Goldlady]

If I found a wallet full of cash in the street I would take it straight to the police station.

 

And we are talking about a young lad, £350 which he no longer has, and not £135,000.

[Goldlady]

In fact the only remedy available to the people who paid the money out by bank transfer is restitution. This is a common law remedy and is only available if electronic transfer of the money has not occurred, as the common law only allows tracing of cheques or property. The courts will apply strict liability to receipt of money belonging to another and the only defence is change of position. As the money has been spent on other things then I suggest there is nothing they can do.

 

(Helped with my revision - thanks:D)

[Shanks]

Goldlady - so why are you seemingly advocating such a different opinion in this case. In both examples the cash has come into a person’s possession because of an error made by the original owner of the cash. You say you would hand the wallet straight to the police so why is the basic premise not the same in the OP’s case?

 

I provided some links to the Sarah’s case because it has been raised on this thread a number of times and thought it might be interesting for people to have some background information about the case. I was not directly comparing the two situations despite the commonality of certain aspects.

[Goldlady]

I think Shanks because, I am sure like many other people in this country, I have differing standards when it comes to the big boys and the little guys. I have been self employed for 15 years and have suffered big style when the big guys have withheld payment for 90 days to keep the money in their banks, and little guys like me have suffered. Likewise with the banks stealing people's money as we are all fighting on here.

 

I am quite sure that if the OP received a letter saying that the girl (or boy) who had mistakenly paid the money into his son's account was going to have a deduction from his/her wages (at the minimum wage rate) taken from them to penalise them for making the mistake then he would find the money to pay it back.

 

Call me Robina Hood if you like, but that's the way I see it:o