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    • An update to this case as I’ve not been on in a while.    I am still awaiting a charging decision in the case. The two police officers involved have said their personal belief is a section 47 ABH charge is the most likely outcome but this isn’t a sure thing of course.    The EA certificate from the issuing court has now lapsed. The court have refused to recertify him until they’ve had a hearing in to the case, and the district judge has issued orders to surrender all evidence, footage, photos etc.    I have done so promptly.    the EA, not so much . Equita have claimed they cannot provide his bodycam footage as the camera he was wearing is the EA personal one not one of theirs.   the EA has claimed he has asked Equita and the police for the footage as he claims he doesn’t have it.    the police have confirmed they didn’t seize his camera and they don’t have it.    so they are basically pointing the finger at each other all the while failing to comply with the district judges order to provide all evidence they intend to rely on at the rescheduled hearing.    The district judge has stated the hearing for his certification will NOT be the hearing for my complaint as there is no charge as of yet, and just as to whether he should be recertified or not.    I’m not 100% on why that can’t be done at the time, but I’m not about to question a judge…..      
    • Thanks FTMDave, I like the cut of your jib - I'll go with that and obtain proof of postage. Encouraging that NPE have never followed through and seem to blowing hot air, let's see where they go after this   Regards
    • Please see my comments in orange within your post.
    • no i meant the email from parcel2go which email address did they send it from and who signed it off (whos name is at the bottom)
    • I understand confusion with this thread.  I tried to keep threads separate because there have been so many angles.    But a team member merged them all.  This is why it's hard to keep track. This forum exists to help little people fight injustice - however big or small.  Im here to try get a decent resolution. Not to give in to the ' big boys'. My "matter' became complicated 'matters' simply because a lender refused to sell a property. What can I say?  I'll try in a nutshell to give an overview: There's a long lease property. I originally bought it short lease with a s.146 on it from original freeholder.  I had no concerns. So lender should have been able to sell a well-maintained lovely long lease property.  The property was great. The issue is not the property.  Economy, sdlt increases, elections, brexit, covid, interest hikes etc didn't help.  The issue is simple - the lender wanted to keep it.   House or Flat? Before repo I offered to clear my loan.  I was a bit short and lender refused.  They said (recorded) they thought the property was worth much more and they were happy to keep accruing interest (in their benefit) until it reached a point where they felt they could repo and still easily quickly sell to get their £s back.  This was a mistake.  The market was (and is) tough.   2y later the lender ceo bid the same sum to buy the property for himself. He'd rejected higher offers in the intervening period whilst accruing interest. Lenders have a legal obligation to sell the property for the best price they can get. If they feel the offer is low they won't sell it, because it's likely the borrower will say the same. I had the property under offer to a fantastic niche buyer but lender rushed to repo and buyer got spooked and walked.  It had taken a long time to find such a lucrative buyer.  A sale which would have resulted in £s and another asset for me. Post repo lender had 1 offer immediately.  But dragged out the process for >1y - allegedly trying to get other offers. But disclosure shows there was only one valid buyer. Again, points as above. Lender appointed receiver (after 4 months) - simply to try acquire the freehold.  He used his powers as receiver to use me, as leaseholder, to serve notice on freeholders.  Legally that failed. Meanwhile lender failed to secure property - and squatters got in (3 times).  And they failed to maintain it.  So freeholders served a dilapidations notice (external) - on me as leaseholder (cc-ed to lender).   (That's how it works legally) Why serve a delapidations notice? If it's in the terms of the lease to maintain the property to a good standard, then serve an S146 notice instead as it's a clear breach of the lease. I don't own the freehold.  But I am a trustee and have to do right by the freeholders.  This is where matters got/ get complicated.  And probably lose most caggers.   Lawyers got involved for the freeholders to firstly void the receiver enfranchisement notice. Secondly, to serve the dilapidations notice.  The lack of maintenance was in breach of lease and had to be served to protect fh asset. Enfranchisement isn't something that can be "voided", it's in the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 that leaseholders have the right to buy the freehold of the property. It's normal, whether it is a "normal" leaseholder or a repossession with a leasehold house, to claim this right of enfranchisement and sell the property with said rights attached and the purchase price of the freehold included in the final completion price. That's likely what the mortgage provider wished to do. The lender did no repairs. They said a buyer would undertake them. Which was probably correct. If they had sold. After 1y lender finally agreed to sell to the 1st offeror and contracts went with lawyers.  Within 1 month lender reneged.  Lender tried to suggest buyer walked. Evidence shows he/ his lawyers continued trying to exchange (cash) for 4 months.  Evidence shows lender and receiver strategy had been to renege and for ceo to take control.   I still think that's their plan. Redact and scan said evidence up for others to look at? Lender then stupidly chose to pretty much bulldoze the property.  Other stuff was going on in the background. After repo I was in touch by phone and email and lender knew post got to me.   Despite this, after about 10 months (before and then during covid), they deliberately sent SDs and eventually a B petition to an incorrect address and an obscure small court.  They never served me properly.  (In hindsight I understand they hoped to get a backdoor B - so they could keep the property that way.)  Eventually the random court told them to email me by way of service.  At this point their ruse to make me B failed.  I got a lawyer (friend paid). The B petition was struck out. They’d failed to include the property as an asset. They were in breach of insolvency rules. So this is dealt with then. Simultaneously the receiver again appointed lawyers to act on my behalf as leaseholder. This time to serve notice on the freeholders for a lease extension.  He had hoped to try and vary the strict lease. Evidence shows the already long length of lease wasn't an issue.  The lender obviously hoped to get round their lack of permission to do works (which they were already doing) by hoping to remove the strict clauses that prevent leaseholder doing alterations.  You wouldn't vary a lease through a lease extension. You'd need a Deed of Variation for that. This may be done at the same time but the lease has already been extended once and that's all they have a right to. The extension created a new legal angle for me to deal with.  I had to act as trustee for freeholders against me as leaseholder/ the receiver.  Inconsistencies and incompetence by receiver lawyers dragged this out 3y.  It still isn't properly resolved. The lease has already been extended once so they have no right to another extension. It seems pretty easy to just get the lawyer to say no and stick by those terms as the law is on your side there. Meanwhile - going back to the the works the lender undertook. The works were consciously in breach of lease.  The lender hadn't remedied the breaches listed in the dilapidations notice.  They destroyed the property.  The trustees compiled all evidence.  The freeholders lawyers then served a forfeiture notice. This notice started a different legal battle. I was acting for the freeholders against what the lender had done on my behalf as leaseholder.  This legal battle took 3y to resolve. Again, order them to revert it as they didn't have permission to do the works, or else serve an S146 notice for breach of the lease. The simple exit would have been for lender to sell. A simple agreement to remedy the breaches and recompense the freeholders in compensation - and there's have been clean title to sell.  That option was proposed to them.   This happened by way of mediation for all parties 2y ago.  A resolution option was put forward and in principle agreed.  But immediately after the lender lawyers failed to engage.  A hard lesson to learn - mediation cannot be referred to in court. It's considered w/o prejudice. The steps they took have made no difference to their ability to sell the property.  Almost 3y since they finished works they still haven't sold. ** ** I followed up some leads myself.  A qualified cash buyer offered me a substantial sum.  The lender and receiver both refused it.   I found another offer in disclosure.  6 months later someone had apparently offered a substantial sum via an agent.  The receiver again rejected it.  The problem of course was that the agent had inflated the market price to get the business. But no-one was or is ever going to offer their list price.  Yet the receiver wanted/wants to hold out for the list price.  Which means 1y later not only has it not sold - disclosure shows few viewings and zero interest.  It's transparently over-priced.  And tarnished. For those asking why I don't give up - I couldn't/ can't.  Firstly I have fiduciary duties as a trustee. Secondly, legal advice indicates I (as leaseholder) could succeed with a large compensation claim v the lender.  Also - I started a claim v my old lawyer and the firm immediately reimbursed some £s. That was encouraging.  And a sign to continue.  So I'm going for compensation.  I had finance in place (via friend) to do a deal and take the property back off the lender - and that lawyer messed up bad.   He should have done a deal.  Instead further years have been wasted.   Maybe I only get back my lost savings - but that will be a result.   If I can add some kind of complaint/ claim v the receiver's conscious impropriety I will do so.   I have been left with nothing - so fighting for something is worth it. The lender wants to talk re a form of settlement.  Similar to my proposal 2y ago.  I have a pretty clear idea of what that means to me.  This is exactly why I do not give up.  And why I continue to ask for snippets of advice/ pointers on cag.  
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Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement


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Hi there,

 

On June 20th 2011, i was caught without the correct ticket and was spoken to by 2 inspectors who took down my details.

 

I offered to pay and the penalty fare but they said that was not available to me and C2C would write to me.

 

I have very upset and distraught after this as I know I have done wrong.

 

I have been awaiting a letter and I have phoned C2C twice but was told to await a letter as there was a delay and they were short-staffed.

 

Today I received a letter dated 14th July 2011 and it stated 2nd LETTER. I have never received a 1st Letter.

 

They want me to pay £293.50 now by 21st July 2011.

 

i cant pay by then, so i have handwritten a letter to them this morning and handed it into Benfleet Station, stating I have never received the 1st letter,

nor was I offered the chance to pay a penalty fare and if they still want me to pay the £293.50 to allow me until the end of the month at least.

 

They will not accept phone calls, nor will they accept debit cards. Only cheques and postal orders.

 

My bank no longer has cheques books as they were going to be defunct, yet C2C do not accept chqs on the station.

 

I have done wrong, I know, but the amount is high , yet i dont want it to any further, i am willing to pay whatever is required but it is a lot and I have been given less then a week to pay.

 

Is there anything else I can do?

 

Please help, I am deeply stressed and upset.

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Hi there,

 

On June 20th 2011, i was caught without the correct ticket and was spoken to by 2 inspectors who took down my details.

 

I offered to pay and the penalty fare but they said that was not available to me and C2C would write to me.

 

I have very upset and distraught after this as I know I have done wrong.

 

I have been awaiting a letter and I have phoned C2C twice but was told to await a letter as there was a delay and they were short-staffed.

 

Today I received a letter dated 14th July 2011 and it stated 2nd LETTER. I have never received a 1st Letter.

 

They want me to pay £293.50 now by 21st July 2011.

 

i cant pay by then, so i have handwritten a letter to them this morning and handed it into Benfleet Station, stating I have never received the 1st letter,

nor was I offered the chance to pay a penalty fare and if they still want me to pay the £293.50 to allow me until the end of the month at least.

 

They will not accept phone calls, nor will they accept debit cards. Only cheques and postal orders.

 

My bank no longer has cheques books as they were going to be defunct, yet C2C do not accept chqs on the station.

 

I have done wrong, I know, but the amount is high , yet i dont want it to any further, i am willing to pay whatever is required but it is a lot and I have been given less then a week to pay.

 

Is there anything else I can do?

 

Please help, I am deeply stressed and upset.

 

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to offer a great deal of encouragement I'm afraid. The rail company do not have to offer an

 

Firstly, when a traveller is found to be in breach of the rules, the rail company do not have to allow any opportunity to pay at a later date. If there is sufficient eveidence to suggest that prosecution is warranted, then they may proceed accordingly.

 

You can only write and advise that you did not receive any 'first letter' and ask for a copy of that letter and the right to respond to that before C2C apply any financial penalty.

 

However, there is one thing that I find a little unusual in this one and that is that your post suggests that C2C have immediately offered an opportunity to pay their costs & fares as an alternative to prosecution without having received any representation from the traveller.

 

If you still want to pay, but are unable to do so, perhaps writing the letter that I suggested and once you get the reply to that, send a further letter with a request for delay in order to allow time to pay might help.

 

I suggest that you send your letters by recorded delivery.

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I want to pay and ive been awake all night and i can pay by next Friday,but im very upset that I never got the first letter.I have handed in a letter personally to Benfleet station telling them this yesterday.Its a lot of money, but Its what I deserve and I Just want to get it out of the way.I called a helpline and they 7 days payment is unfair and it should have been 21 days, which I would have accepted as they have stated they want it by post and do not accept debit cards. They also stated the amount they want is high and if went to court, they would get less. I just want to get it clear b4 that stage.If I had received the first letter, I would have paid it by now and moved on and learnt my lesson.Stressed to the eyeballs

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to offer a great deal of encouragement I'm afraid. The rail company do not have to offer an

 

Firstly, when a traveller is found to be in breach of the rules, the rail company do not have to allow any opportunity to pay at a later date. If there is sufficient eveidence to suggest that prosecution is warranted, then they may proceed accordingly.

 

You can only write and advise that you did not receive any 'first letter' and ask for a copy of that letter and the right to respond to that before C2C apply any financial penalty.

 

However, there is one thing that I find a little unusual in this one and that is that your post suggests that C2C have immediately offered an opportunity to pay their costs & fares as an alternative to prosecution without having received any representation from the traveller.

 

If you still want to pay, but are unable to do so, perhaps writing the letter that I suggested and once you get the reply to that, send a further letter with a request for delay in order to allow time to pay might help.

 

I suggest that you send your letters by recorded delivery.

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Its not clear what exactly you are asking ?. You have been given an offer to settle out of court, which most people would suggest you take, can you not borrow the money somehow ?. If not then a letter explaining your circumstances (why you cant pay, you are unemplyed, ill, etc) and this may have some success.You could of course let it run its legal course which by the sounds of it would end up with a fine, perhaps less than the £290 quoted but would land you with a criminal record, perhspas someone sle can explain the seriousness (or not) of a record obtained in this way ?I'm unaware of any banks that have duiscarded with cheque books completely, I recently obtained one from my main two banks.Andy

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Yes andydd is right, banks will still issue you a cheque-book if you ask, they just tend not to auto-issue them when you cash your fifth-from-last or whatever it used to be.

However if you're brassic then I don't see that cheques etc are really relevant... you can either pay, or not!

 

Bizarre idea handing a letter at Benfleet station pal! I know you're not a millionaire (probably!!!) but couldn't you afford a stamp?

If you handed it in at Benfleet, then it will probably end up in BEIRUT....

 

...i.e, Laindon!!! LOL

:whoo:

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My bank no longer send out Chq books. Benfleet station is where C2c Rail Prosecution is based, thats why i went there. So not silly at all.I have rec'd a further letter stating i can pay now by 31st July - im going to do this, its not worth the hassle and going to court.C2c have lied in the letter and made asumptions which i showed a solictor and they wouldnt get away with it although i have done wrong in the 1st instance and would still get punished.The inspector took old tickets away from me which were used accordingly, I have been told that under no circumstances was the inspector allowed to take these with out BTP involvement as it was nothing to do with these. The fare C2c is totally not relevant to the crime as they have assumed i have done more wrong. I could go to court and fight but i still would end up with a criminal record as i have done wrong on one day only.C2c shouldnt lie or make assumptions on anyone. its not acceptable in 2011. The sooner C2c lose their franchise the better.

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HHmm..Im not sure your rantings are going to help.............C2C have had their franchised extended as they generally provide a good service, its NXEA who are lsoing theirs as their service is below par to say the least.Andy

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The inspector took old tickets away from me which were used accordingly, I have been told that under no circumstances was the inspector allowed to take these with out BTP involvement as it was nothing to do with these.

 

I do not know where you are getting this kind of advice, but that is absolute rubbish. All rail tickets remain the property of the rail company at all times and technically, should be handed in at the end of a journey. Of course there isn't a facility for collection at most stations these days so that condition is pretty well ignored however, used rail tickets may be withdrawn and collected by rail staff. If a traveller needs a receipt to claim expenses, then you can get one at the time of purchase of the ticket.

 

British Transport Police do not need to be involved in questioning or prosecution of these cases at all.

 

If you are being advised by a solicitor that the C2C staff have 'lied' ( your word there), why would you want to pay them anything??

 

In my experience, any Solicitor worth their salt who genuinely believes that to be the case would be suggesting that you pursue the matter vigorously.

 

As Andy pointed out your rant is entirely misplaced, but I hope you feel better for it.

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They are a dreadful network.Sky high fares in proportion to rest of uk and other networks.Overcrowded trains, unclean toilets. uncomfortable seating.Train delays. Rude staff and poor customer service.I have been told by a solictor and other parties that under no circumstances can a rail ticket be used to incriminate against anyone apart from a season ticket after the date has expired, without BTP involvement. I had other tickets on me to/from Benfleet where I worked the previous week. On day in question i worked in London and thats where i went wrong. I purchased a ticket to basildon instead of Barking.For this is have a fine of £293.50 - very high - as C2c have assumed I have committed more offences. I have not.I could go to court to fight this but i have still committed one offence, so i would still end up in trouble.

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Hello again Karl. Is the solicitor [or the other people] advising you a specialist in rail prosecutions? Fwiw, Old-Codja has considerable experience in this and hasn't been wrong AFAIK.

 

Whatever you think of C2C, if they're legally in the right, I suspect there isn't much you can do.

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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I have been told by a solictor and other parties that under no circumstances can a rail ticket be used to incriminate against anyone apart from a season ticket after the date has expired, without BTP involvement.

 

I'm sorry, but that is complete 'tosh'. If that were the case, I can see many thousands of cases that I and other users of this forum have personal experience of going back before the Courts. That should keep a few people in work for a bit!

 

I had other tickets on me to/from Benfleet where I worked the previous week.

 

They remain the property of the rail company.

 

On day in question i worked in London and thats where i went wrong. I purchased a ticket to basildon instead of Barking.

 

So, it appears that you purchased a ticket for a shorter journey than that you were actually making thereby failing to pay the proper fare due.

 

For this is have a fine of £293.50 - very high - as C2c have assumed I have committed more offences. I have not.

 

No, you have NOT been 'Fined'. Only the Courts have the authority to impose fines. You seem to have been given an opportunity to pay an administrative fee to close the case without Court action. You don't have to take it, you don't have to pay and can have the evidence tested by the Magistrates.

 

I could go to court to fight this but i have still committed one offence, so i would still end up in trouble.

 

Not if you are correct in your assertion that C2C staff have been untruthful in presenting concocted evidence in order to bring about the prosecution. If the Court believed that to be the case you would come away squeaky clean and it would prove extremely expensive and damaging for C2C.

Edited by Old-CodJA
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They are a dreadful network.Sky high fares in proportion to rest of uk and other networks.Overcrowded trains, unclean toilets. uncomfortable seating.Train delays. Rude staff and poor customer service.I have been told by a solictor and other parties that under no circumstances can a rail ticket be used to incriminate against anyone apart from a season ticket after the date has expired, without BTP involvement. I had other tickets on me to/from Benfleet where I worked the previous week. On day in question i worked in London and thats where i went wrong. I purchased a ticket to basildon instead of Barking.For this is have a fine of £293.50 - very high - as C2c have assumed I have committed more offences. I have not.I could go to court to fight this but i have still committed one offence, so i would still end up in trouble.

 

I'm not one to defend railway companies but you really are spouting rubbish, I travel on C2C every day and have myself been prosocuted many years ago for a similar offence. Experts like Old-Codja have told you that your solicitor is spouting rubbish, there doesnt need to be BTP incolvement and its really not clear what you are talking about, ticket inspectors are perfectly entitled to take tickets from you because they remain property of the railway company.

 

Now while C2C are not cheap they compare reasonably well with other companies, a return to London from Westcliff costs me £15.40 whilst a ticket from Prittlewell (NXEA) (actually my nearest station) to London would cost £24.50 so how can you say C2C are the most expensive ?

 

You try and find another localcommuter line that has air con..the seats seem fine to me and whilst I have seen overflowed toilets this is very rare and mostly late at night, as for delayus, they are time and time again the No.1 most punctial line !....having travelled on them for many years, they are not perfect, but their punctiality is quite impressive.

 

As fore rude staff, I certainly have met some rather unhelpful staff but then again Ive been helped by friendly helpful staff, like life, there is a cross section of people !

 

Andy

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Thank you for your replies and i appreciate them. Very helpful and i respect your comments.

 

Thank for your help. I will pay the fine from C2c for fares and admin fee and learn from my experience and never do it again.

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http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/without-prejudice.html

 

Without abandonment of a claim, privilege, or right, and without implying an admission of liability.

 

(1) When used in a document or letter, without prejudice means that what follows (a) cannot be used as evidence in a court case, (b) cannot be taken as the signatory's last word on the subject matter, and © cannot be used as a precedent.

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That applies to Civil Procedures, not criminal offences.

 

 

But surely its meaning its roughly the same whether used in civil or criminal cases ?. It generally means that the enclosed letter isn't definate and cant be used in court of proof of acceptance or an offer, (i.e you cant later say, but C2C offered to drop the case if i paid £x).

 

It can be used for example to make a suggestion of an offer or a settlement without it being a legally binding offer.

 

In (civil) cases the phrase Without Prejudice save as to costs" is often used which is more confusing.

 

In what context has "Without Prejudice" been used ?

 

Andy

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Letter saidWithout pre-judice we will accept payment of £293.50 by 31 st July without further action.and then some jargon as this is up for going to the courts , all correspondence in writing only.

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It seems to me that the best explanation of its meaning in this case is to say that;

 

You had the opportunity to pay the £293.50 by the date shown, or to have the matter heard by a court and that your refusal or failure to make any payment could not be seen as detrimental to any argument you might put in relation to the alleged offence.

 

Having advised you that there was a case that could be taken forward and that a summons could be applied for, you were offered an alternative way of disposing of the matter, but the rail company and court would accept that it was your right to reject that opportunity and have the case heard if you then chose to do so.

 

This would not prejudice your defence in any way.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have paid my fine by Chq as requested for the full amount.However the money is still in my bank account and i have rang my bank and they haven't cashed it.I cant ring C2C.Do i write another letter.I handed it to the station by Hand to the Department on Benfleet station or do i just wait as it can take time.

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I handed it on the 28th july at 5.20pm. I didnt get a receipt as the women just took it and dissapeared and then i saw her hand it too another man and they just talked but I didnt see them open the letter.I handed in at Benfleet station at the Ticket Office as this is the address for it anyway

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