Hi all

I would like other people’s opinions on my situation.

It’s a great read if you have insomnia

Here we go

The date is February 2003 the first year for the new child tax credit system.

We received our tax credit award showing all correct information.

Both N I numbers

Me working 40 hours and correct salary.

Wife working 10 hours and correct salary.

And two qualifying children.

In April 2003 my wife’s salary was reduced we informed H R M C by phone of the reduced wage.

Mid April we received a revised tax credit award

Both N I numbers shown

My wife's reduced salary was shown correctly and her reduced hours shown correctly

And two qualifying children shown.

My 40 hours were still shown but not my salary.

As it was only my wife's salary that had altered we thought no more of it / as this was the first year we had no bench mark for comparison.

Please bear in mind it showed me as working forty hours

Next to where my wife's salary is printed it states Total income

NOT Joint total income, as has been stated by HMRC in correspondences since.

Fast forward 10 months filled out 2004 child tax credit form and sent it off.

At this point it came to light that they had over paid us for 10 months.

H M R C told us that they would recoup the overpayment from us by reducing our payments from future years.

At that time (2003) we did not realise that we could have argued our case, as it was

Not our mistake, we gave them all the correct information they failed to enter it on their system.

We may be also at fault for not fully checking the award and noticing their mistake.

In 2009 we were informed by a family friend that we should approach HMRC in regard to not having to pay back the overpayment .We filled out a TC846, Stating that it was basically their mistake.

In July 2009 we got a reply as follows

I have considered the information you have provided and checked our records to determine the reason for your overpayment. I have found that the overpayment arose because of a change in your joint annual income.

We sent you an award notice on 16 April 2003 stating that your tax credits award of

£ --- was based on your joint annual income of £4,400.00.The award notice stated that you should tell us if your joint annual income went above £4,400.00.

On 7 July 2004 you told us that your correct joint annual income was £ HIGHER. This reduced your entitlement to £----- which was shown on your award notice dated 12 July 2004.

This means you were overpaid by £------, which is the difference between the amount we paid you and the amount you were entitled to receive.

IN MY OPINION

The problem arose, not because of the change in my wife’s income, but because they failed to enter my wage on their system .Their mistake.

I might of noticed their mistake if it stated JOINT INCOME on the award

But it did not, it stated Total income.

No they have reduced the qualifying salary we will no longer receive any payments.

Which now means they can no longer recoup from future payments so I have now got to find £3200

What I want to know is this

Do you see this as My fault Their fault or Both

Any opinions on whose fault appreciated .And what to do next.

Can I re apply for them to take another look at this or is it too late.

Thanks in advance

The problem lies in when the change was actioned.

Even if the income was incorrect but everything else was correct for example your hours, this could cause an overpayment. Now the thing to think about is; when you made the change increasing your income, they send out a revised tax credit award which has the income on it. You have to check this to ensure the figures are correct and if not contact the helpline to correct them.

Now where most overpayment disputes get tricky is over these award notices and the income. If the claimant contacted the helpline to increase the income and the payments stayed the same, this is where a dispute could be lost. In many disputes, even when there has been an error with the income, a dispute can be lost because the claimants should have noticed the payments had not decreased in line with the change. If you continued to be paid the same or the payments did not drop as they should, then they could argue you should have seen this and reported it. I have seen many disputes lost because they state that the claimant should reasonably have expected the payments to be different.

If you are updating your income especially after a new tax year, if you had given £4400 for your wife, what did you give for yourself? If a figure was not offered during the call, it is possible your income was nil. Can you remember giving your figures?

And to answer your question it's a bit of both, faultwise if I have this right. It would be best to know if both incomes were updated during the call. These records can be pulled for a dispute.

My wifes salary was reduced so expect an increase in tax credit ,my dispute is that it states total income not joint total income as HMRC has stated in the letter to me in reply to the tc846 form.If like you think, fault is a bit of both are we both liable for repayment from me and write off from them.

I would suggest reading COP (code of practice) 26

this gives details of the procedures to follow in tax credit overpayment situations.

Go to the HMRC website and enter COP 26 in search box.

You had a reasonable belief that all was in order, the error is theirs!

I would suggest reading COP (code of practice) 26

this gives details of the procedures to follow in tax credit overpayment situations.

Go to the HMRC website and enter COP 26 in search box.

 

You had a reasonable belief that all was in order, the error is theirs!

Sorry. I am not sure if I have this right.

So when the change was made regarding your income for your wife was this the £4400 and the joint notice came after this - the one you have issue wih the wording?

If so then the only way to know where the error is would be to have the records of that call. The reason I mentioned before about a dispute being lost would be if they asked during the call something along the lines of "is that your total household income?"

This is where I've seen things get sticky because the person said yes. Now that is where I would say you have margin for error from your side.

To answer your question; i would never agree to any overpayment amount unless I was 100% satisfied that the reason could be explained to me.

You can as the previous poster mentioned get the COP26 - but you may get away with a standard O/P dispute form - yes the timescales is out but you could state you are submitting this as have further info to give. This would be that you have only recently found out that they can listen to call records made and you believe this will exonerate you of blame. Another thing you could try is to mention the disregard that has been in place to prevent overpayments happenening - this was not in place during the period, but you could argue if the same happened now, you wouldn't have the overpayment you did. Worth a try.Also ask for suspension of recovery until a decision has been made to avoid any demands.

Hi

I take it that what you are calling disregard (Another thing you could try is to mention the disregard) is some sort of security so overpayments dont happen? .Can i ask for a written account of the phone conversation my wife had back in 2003. Or do you just have to take their word on what was said .

You can issue a subject access request under the data protection act for a recording of the call.

You will need to tell them the day/date and time of the call or as much info about that as you can provide and also the telephone number that you called from.

Hi should i send payment for the subject access request at the same time that i send in the new tc846 form .

HMRC do not charge for subject access requests.

If you go on the HMRC website and put subject access request in the search box, this will take you to a SAR form you can complete and e mail to the SAR team

Hi i have searched on HMRC website for S.A. R but can only find documents relating to staff use, for them to use. Does the form have a number which i can search for. or a link to it .

thanks

Can't do a link sorry (on iPod)

If you put HMRC subject access request in google search and click on the first subject in the list it will take you to the form below;

Data Protection Subject Access Request Form

*indicates required information

Please note you have 15 minutes to complete this form before your session will be terminated and all information entered will be lost.

Part A

Title*

Surname*

Forename(s)*

Date of Birth*

dd/mm/yyyy

National Insurance Number *

We need an email address to acknowledge that we have received the information you have completed on this form. If you do not have your own email address, please provide an email address where you are happy for an acknowledgement to be sent. If you would prefer not to receive an acknowledgment, please use the following email address in this field – [email protected] Please note: if this field is left blank your form will not be submitted and the information provided will be lost.

Email address*

Current address line 1*

Current address line 2

Current address line 3

Current postcode*

Please indicate below your previous address if applicable.

Previous address line 1

Previous address line 2

Previous address line 3

Previous postcode

__________________________________________________

Part B

Please indicate below the type of records that you wish to have access to. If you would like to view Tax, VAT or Child Benefit Records please insert the appropriate reference numbers in the spaces provided below.

Tax Credits

*

National Insurance

Income Tax

*

Child Benefit Records

*

VAT

*

Customs Records (Please supply details in Part C)

*

Other (Please supply details in Part C)

> Tax Reference Number

> VAT Registration Numer

> Child Benefit Number

__________________________________________________

Part C

IMPORTANT: Please enter in the space below the following information:

Any HM Revenue & Customs office addesses and reference numbers.

If this relates to a joint claim to Tax Credits please provide partners name and National Insurance number.

Any other details you feel will assist us in tracing and retrieving your information.

Further details

__________________________________________________

Part D

I declare that I am the person named in Part A and that I am entitled to request personal information under the terms of the Data Protection Act 1998.

I agree with the above declaration*

>Date

dd/mm/yyyy

© Crown Copyright HMRC Terms & Conditions HMRC Privacy policy HMRC Accessibility

Thanks for the information . I have filled in the form and emailed .Do i now need to post in the tc846 form stating we have new information ,being that we did not know we could have a copy of telephone conversation, And that the tax credit award states total income and not joint total income as stated in the decision reply letter. And will that in turn put the repayment on hold as they have asked for the overpayment to be paid back by 27/05/2012 .

THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP

Yes, fill in TC846 and give your reasons as stated in your post above.

See what response you get and then depending on what they say, you can consider making an appeal and asking for an independent review officer to look at your case again

I will be posting that to them on tuesday .will let you know the outcome .I am sure i will be back on the forum very soon with more questions for you , and once again thanks for your help .