HMRC chasing 2010 self assessment late filing fees - can they now?

[stuber]

Morning Caggers, i've recently had correspondence from hmrc chasing me for a 4 figure sum of outstanding fines. These date back to 2010 when I lost my company due to the credit crunch and the repurcussions of the Banking Crisis.

At that time my head wasn't in a good place, lost my company and my marriage and didn't comply with Self Assessment etc, no profits clearly and the fall out from this inaction was a fine for late filing which grew and grew.

So here we are in late 2023 and they have raised their heads and are now chasing the debt, none of which is Tax, just late filing fines . . . so my question is;

Can this debt be time barred?

 

Many thanks in advance Caggers.

[dx100uk]

nope gov't debts are never sb'd.

goto to the hmrc website, search there for SAR.

get one off to them.

they must be able to prove the debt, and not just by a simple note from some external auditing company they might have used at the time.

 

[slick132]

Hi Stuber,

Can you confirm the breakdown of what HMRC say you owe, for each tax year concerned.

I doubt this is down to any external auditing - more likely they're just chasing this now because the amounts are more significant. 

[stuber]

2010 - £63.03
2011 - £22.89
2012 - £110.33
2013 - £1688.70
2014 - £1.60
2015 - £1978.68
2016 - £1934.48
2017 - £0
2018 - £0
2019 - £0
2020 - £318.42
2021 - £1.40

I thought HMRC became a 'normal' creditor in regards to chasing debt? They used to be the first in line but changed to be an ordinary creditor some time ago, therefore surely they are governed by the time barring like everyone else no?

 

[stuber]

SAR sent online . . .

[slick132]

Without going into detail, do you have any idea why the amounts differ so much for each year.

Are you sure these are penalties. Could the amounts be estimated tax liabilities ?

Hopefully this will all be clear when the SAR response comes back ..............

[stuber]

I've found this online;

 

EM5001 - Penalties: Time Limits: General

TMA70/S103

All penalty action is subject to time limits. If the relevant time limit has expired then you cannot

• proceed for a penalty before the tribunal, or
• determine a penalty formally, or
• include a penalty in a negotiated contract settlement other than by way of voluntary restitution.

For these reasons you must

• review your working enquiry cases in line with EM3254
• avoid the premature issue of a closure notice, or premature determination of an appeal against a discovery assessment or against an amendment to a self assessment, and
• settle the case as quickly as possible by reviewing for formal penalty action once the closure notice has been issued and/or any appeals against discovery assessments or self assessment amendments have been determined.

Where a penalty is tax geared the time limit for penalty proceedings or determination is within

1. six years after the offence was committed, or
2. if later, three years after the tax on which it is based was finally determined.

For non tax geared penalties the time limit is within six years after the date on which the offence was committed.

Section 16(1)(b) Social Security Contributions & Benefits Act 1992 applies all the time limits to Class 4 NIC.

Under Section 118(4), the amount of tax covered by any assessment or self assessment is not finally determined until the assessment or self assessment can no longer be varied, whether by the tribunal on appeal or by the order of any Court (see the Court of Appeal judgement in Salmon v Havering Commissioners & CIR 45TC77). It follows that a demand for a stated case under TMA70/S56 will keep open the time limits until the final order of the Courts or the prior settlement of the appeal.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I'm thinking this 'debt' falls into the above category?

[slick132]

Noted but please answer the Q in my last post