Recenly received the following PCN from the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham.

The offense allegedly happened when vehicle was travelling west to east along New Kings Road.

See arial google maps image

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Bagley's+Ln,+Hammersmith,+London+SW6,+United+Kingdom&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=13.679199,46.450195&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FZNwEQMdOiD9_w&split=0&hq=&hnear=Bagley's+Ln,+London+SW6,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.476809,-0.192082&spn=0.000439,0.001418&t=h&z=20

and see google maps street level view in direction of vehicle

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Bagley's+Ln,+Hammersmith,+London+SW6,+United+Kingdom&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=13.679199,46.450195&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FZNwEQMdOiD9_w&split=0&hq=&hnear=Bagley's+Ln,+London+SW6,+United+Kingdom&t=h&ll=51.476692,-0.192368&spn=0,0.001418&z=20&layer=c&cbll=51.476618,-0.192472&panoid=C7zPanbw2smnQczD0UT0xg&cbp=12,42.94,,0,18.62

All that has beem recieved as evidence is a still photograph which does not prove anything, and to be honest drive this section of road so frequently that cannot remember the time in question, but sure would not stop in box junction.

Any help would be most welcome.

Thanks

I'm slightly confused because that picture is awful - I don't see at all how it can show you in a box junction, the front wheel is only just in front of what looks like the stop line, behind the refuge and the box is even after the refuge. If that's your car stopped, surely it isn't in the box, and so (unless they do have a photo of you IN the box AND that stop in the box is contrary to the HC guidance, i.e. you stopped in the box junction when your exit was not clear and there was no oncoming traffic stopping you moving) surely no contravention occurred, since that photo does not show your car stopped in a box junction...

thats what i thought, the picture does not prove anything.

Do i have a right to see the CCTV footage?

I'd say so... They need to prove the contravention exists, or at least show it (c.f. several photos with other PCNs).

I'm slightly confused because that picture is awful - I don't see at all how it can show you in a box junction, the front wheel is only just in front of what looks like the stop line, behind the refuge and the box is even after the refuge. If that's your car stopped, surely it isn't in the box, and so (unless they do have a photo of you IN the box AND that stop in the box is contrary to the HC guidance, i.e. you stopped in the box junction when your exit was not clear and there was no oncoming traffic stopping you moving) surely no contravention occurred, since that photo does not show your car stopped in a box junction...

Since the offence is a 'moving traffic' contravention its impossible for any photo to show a vehicle contravening which is why they use cctv, there is no requirement for any photos on a PCN let alone one that shows the vehicle contravening the photo has been added to identify the keepers vehicle.

Since the offence is a 'moving traffic' contravention its impossible for any photo to show a vehicle contravening which is why they use cctv, there is no requirement for any photos on a PCN let alone one that shows the vehicle contravening the photo has been added to identify the keepers vehicle.

how should i proceed?

Since the offence is a 'moving traffic' contravention its impossible for any photo to show a vehicle contravening which is why they use cctv, there is no requirement for any photos on a PCN let alone one that shows the vehicle contravening the photo has been added to identify the keepers vehicle.

The offence is stopping in a box junction, isn't it? If that's the case, surely a still from the CCTV showing the car actually stopped in the box junction would be better than a photo of the car with its front wheel marginally over the stop line and no part of the vehicle in the box. The CCTV is time stamped presumably, so you could send with the pcn a still of the car stopping and a still of just before it moves off indicating it had stopped in the box for that time. They haven't even shown the car was in the box at all.

You can ask for images to appeal with speeding tickets and as both stopping in a box junction and speeding are illegal surely before you accept guilt you need to be shown what you are being charged with? Personally if I didn't recall stopping in the box, and they didn't show me evidence of doing it, then I'd appeal the ticket and say that I didn't believe the contravention occurred because that does not show any evidence of stopping in a box junction. If you did, and they had the evidence to match, they'd simply have to show a time period of you being stopped in there, at which point it is showing a contravention hence no point appealing.

.... unless they do have a photo of you IN the box AND that stop in the box is contrary to the HC guidance,.

ForestChav please lets not do the thread on people being in contravention of HIGHWAY CODE GUIDANCE again!

The contravention would be contrary to the TSRGD regs section 10(1) and 29(2) as shown below HC rule 174

 

 

 

174

 

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see 'Road markings'). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.

 

(Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2))

There should be some information on the PCN advising how you may view the CCTV footage which you can do before paying or challenging the PCN.

The offence is stopping in a box junction, isn't it?

No its not, it is entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited! It is not against the law OR the highway code just to stop in a box junction.

No its not, it is entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited! It is not against the law OR the highway code just to stop in a box junction.

Learn to read. For someone who is such a nit picker I'm surprised you can't. In the second post on this thread, I said the contravention is stopping in a box junction when your exit road is not clear and your movement is not blocked by oncoming traffic. You have taken that sentence completely out of context, making you look like an idiot.

ForestChav please lets not do the thread on people being in contravention of HIGHWAY CODE GUIDANCE again!

Uhh, I did say it was against the law. There can't be a contravention if it is not... In this case the "HC guidance" also corresponds directly to a law, in this case TSRGD so you are driving illegally and in violation of the driving practices shown in the HC if you break that rule.

(unless)you stopped in the box junction when your exit was not clear and there was no oncoming traffic stopping you moving surely no contravention occurred

The OP needs to see the CCTV footage or appropriate images showing where he is stopped. If there was no unauthorised stopping in the box which has not so far been shown to be the case, there is no contravention hence appeal. If there is, and they've just not shown the photo, then no grounds to appeal. Simple as. Which is exactly what I said. I don't see why you're being so argumentative over totally nothing at all.

Learn to read. For someone who is such a nit picker I'm surprised you can't. In the second post on this thread, I said the contravention is stopping in a box junction when your exit road is not clear and your movement is not blocked by oncoming traffic. You have taken that sentence completely out of context, making you look like an idiot.

except the offence IS NOT "stopping in a box junction". The offence is more correctly as stated by G&M. "ENTERING and STOPPING in a box junction".

i.e. the offence only occurs if your exit is not free PRIOR to you entering the box. So if you enter the box with your exit clear, and something occurs beyond your control which now blocks your exit forcing you to stop within the box, then no offence has occurred.

except the offence IS NOT "stopping in a box junction". The offence is more correctly as stated by G&M. "ENTERING and STOPPING in a box junction".

 

i.e. the offence only occurs if your exit is not free PRIOR to you entering the box. So if you enter the box with your exit clear, and something occurs beyond your control which now blocks your exit forcing you to stop within the box, then no offence has occurred.

Which is exactly what I said it was. It's stopping a box junction when your exit is not clear and no oncoming traffic is preventing you from leaving. You can't stop in it without entering. Either way, from that picture it's not even relevant - it doesn't show the car even stopped or in a box junction, it's slightly over the stop line, not yet in the box, which is allowed, you can cross the line on a green light and even if that junction has a box you can stop between the stop line (provided you didn't pass it on a red light) and not enter the box if it is not free. Quite why they think that picture shows any contravention at all, not least any demonstration of having entered a box junction...

OP it looks like you can view the images online http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/holding/PCNImages.asp

except the offence IS NOT "stopping in a box junction". The offence is more correctly as stated by G&M. "ENTERING and STOPPING in a box junction".

 

i.e. the offence only occurs if your exit is not free PRIOR to you entering the box. So if you enter the box with your exit clear, and something occurs beyond your control which now blocks your exit forcing you to stop within the box, then no offence has occurred.

Which is why I said the contravention could not be shown in a photo, even if the photo showed the OP parked in the middle of the box junction it would not show him entering when his exit was not clear.

Which is exactly what I said it was. It's stopping a box junction when your exit is not clear and no oncoming traffic is preventing you from leaving. You can't stop in it without entering.

You still don't get it do you!!? You can stop in the box junction provided when you entered the exit was clear!!!!

You still don't get it do you!!? You can stop in the box junction provided when you entered the exit was clear!!!!

But he isn't even stopped in a box junction is he?

But he isn't even stopped in a box junction is he?

He is not entering the box junction either is he? Which is why for the 3rd time I will point out that a photo a) cannot show the contravention and b) is not required to show the contravention on the PCN.

He is not entering the box junction either is he? Which is why for the 3rd time I will point out that a photo a) cannot show the contravention and b) is not required to show the contravention on the PCN.

So what's the point of a photo which isn't even showing an offence (presuming the car passed the line on a green light) being on the PCN, which isn't even required to be there or can't show the offence anyway?

You would have thought they would use a photo of him actually stopped on the box junction or crossing the line onto that.

And as I said, actually, you can show the contravention with photos. 1 of him entering, and 2 of him stopped on it (i.e. in two different points in time showing no movement of the car) and a photo of the exit being clear. They have lines on the road next to some speed cameras for this and in any case they will have timestamps either in the metadata or on the screen image itself which will show this, failing that, they will have the cctv video (which is only a sequence of still images anyway) recorded of when the offence allegedly took place (which is how they have issued the notice anyway).

None of this matters. The OP does not recall entering the box junction - understandable as it's one he uses regularly, several times, and they often send the PCNs out a while after the offence anyway. The photo on the PCN does not show the OP's car in a box junction regardless of whether it can/should be there so the only thing that shows as a memory jogger is that he went there at that time. Are you seriously suggesting that he should just pay the fine (as it seems you are arguing with the investigate whether he did/appeal approach) when he doesn't even remember committing an offence?

Several choices here:

1. presume you did it and pay the fine even though you can't remember and they haven't shown you have

2. no review, appeal saying no contravention and support with "the PCN does not show entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited" (your words not mine) and see what comes back

3. write to them and ask for cctv evidence or more photos to reinforce whether or not an offence was committed and then decide whether to appeal (if they don't show an offence) or not (if they do)

4. view the cctv on their website if it is up and then decide as per 3.

It's quite simple.

There is no such offence as 'stopping in a box junction when your exit is not clear'. Green & Mean is correct, the offence is ENTERING and stopping in a box junction when your exit is not clear

The purpose of the photograph is to identify the vehicle. It is not to show evidence of the actual offence otherwise it would need moving pictures. How else would a single or even a series of pictures show whether you were stopped, nearly stopped, going backwards etc.

And as I said, actually, you can show the contravention with photos. 1 of him entering, and 2 of him stopped on it (i.e. in two different points in time showing no movement of the car) and a photo of the exit being clear.

That would show that there had been no contravention.

There is no such offence as 'stopping in a box junction when your exit is not clear'. Green & Mean is correct, the offence is ENTERING and stopping in a box junction when your exit is not clear

It's not even that.

The contravention is

. . . no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

Refer to Jennings v Transport for London (PATAS case no. MV0285GT01) which says

“no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles”. The contravention is only established when the subject vehicle stops due to the presence of stationary vehicles. In this case the vehicle stopped in order to comply with a red light. The contravention was therefore not established.

There are many other reasons why a vehicle may enter and stop in a box junction without there being stationary vehicles present some of them may involve the exit not being clear and some may not.

Which is exactly what I said it was. It's stopping a box junction when your exit is not clear and no oncoming traffic is preventing you from leaving. You can't stop in it without entering.

.. but you can ENTER the box when your exit is clear, and then be prevented from leaving because something now occurs AFTER you have ENTERED the box causing you to STOP WITHIN THE BOX which means no contravention occurred.

There is no such offence as 'stopping in a box junction when your exit is not clear'. Green & Mean is correct, the offence is ENTERING and stopping in a box junction when your exit is not clear

Technically it's just entering but it's not relevant if no offence took place whatever it is. It might be entering, doing a triple lutz whilst blowing the blue danube on a vuvuzela but if you didn't do it, it doesn't matter

174

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see 'Road markings'). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.

[Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)]

The purpose of the photograph is to identify the vehicle. It is not to show evidence of the actual offence otherwise it would need moving pictures. How else would a single or even a series of pictures show whether you were stopped, nearly stopped, going backwards etc.

The same way as it would with anything else. Two photos a time of a couple of seconds apart with the car in the same place shows it has not moved in those two seconds.

What do you think moving pictures, or video evidence is? Just a series of photos changing over. TV is 50 Hz, that's still images changing 50 times every second.

Also, PCNs do come with photos or the councils have more evidence available for viewing. Another thread with a parking PCN the OP posted several pictures (presumably downloaded from the council) of the car with the PCN in, the location, the signage at the location, etc. This council offers the opportunity to view PCN images on the web via the address I pasted.

Regardless of the intricacies of what the actual offence is, or what should be on a PCN, or anything else which isn't relevant only for the purposes of being pedantic (yeah, they're not exactly the same, but how relevant really is that when we don't even know if he did break the law), he needs advising whether or not to appeal. The photo didn't help show any entering or stopping in a box - a single still wouldn't show this anyway - he can't recall doing it, there's probably more supporting evidence, they usually allow you to see it if there is, which is exactly what I would do. Anything else really isn't helpful...

Technically it's just entering . . .

Wrong again!

If I enter and my exit is blocked by stationary vehicles and I creep over while at the same time the stationary vehicles start moving again and I exit without stopping, there has been no contravention.

That would show that there had been no contravention.

I obviously meant "not being clear"

Wrong again!

 

If I enter and my exit is blocked by stationary vehicles and I creep over while at the same time the stationary vehicles start moving again and I exit without stopping, there has been no contravention.

I meant as opposed to "entering and stopping". That would come under either stationery vehicles in front waiting to turn right, or the exit becoming clear the split second you enter.

174

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see 'Road markings'). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.