CAGisforME -V- GE Capital/Link Financial/HL Legal

[CAGisforME]

Hi,

 

I'm hoping for some help in dealing with this problem.

 

In early 2005, when I was extremely unwell, (Under the care of a Psychiatrist and 5 other treating specialists) I allowed my now ex-OH to persuade me to purchase a car on Hire Purchase via GE Custom (GE Capital) in my sole name.

 

I managed a few payments and then things spiralled out of control. The ex left, leaving me in further financial difficulties and eventually, after being "doorstepped" by a collection agent I agreed to voluntarily have the care re-posessed. That was February 2006.

 

Since then I've been being hassled by H L Legal & Collections, on behalf of Link Financial, who claim to be the assignee of GEC.

 

I sent the letter asking for the Agreement, statement and Deed of Assignment.

 

The Agreement (Well, a very bad, unreadable copy of a fax) has been duly sent to me, along with a statement. This shows that they sold the car in March 2006 for £3500 less than I paid for it less than one year before. This statement, despite having a space at the bottom of it for "GE Custom Finance Signature" is UNSIGNED.

 

Thus far I have still seen no proof whatsoever that anyone other than GEC have the right to this debt. No deed of assignment etc.

 

HL Legal & Collections have a very unpleasant approach. They wrote every 2-3 days at first, until I wrote to tell them I am Registered Disabled and can prove that stress exascerbates my condition, they then started to write every 2 weeks or so insisting on responses within 7 days.

 

I got a really "snotty" telephone call last Friday, which prompted me to write the "stop phoning me" letter from this forum and demand the Agreements etc.

 

 

Please can someone advise me what to do now?

 

I still have no Deed of Assignment, so don't know who "owns" this debt.

 

My circumstances have changed dramatically since I sent HL Legal a statement of my income & expenditure (mid last year), as my sick pay has ceased now. I exist on Incapacity benefit, Tax Credits and Disability benefits.

 

HL Legal are threatening Legal Action. I am chronically ill and very worried.

 

My thanks in advance to anyone able to help. I will try and log in later this evening, so please forgive me if I am not available to answer any immediate questions you may have.

 

[lookinforinfo]

When you volunteer to retun the car, the CCA allows that you only need to pay half of the original debt. How very kind. These are normally poor deals from the hirers point of view-right from the start.

You need to look at your agreement, see what the total loan was, then half

that amount. Then subtract your initial deposit, and the payments you made, from that 50% figure and that is how much you still have to pay unfortunately. One would have thought that it should be your ex who should stump up-is it worth asking?

[CAGisforME]

Thanks lookinforinfo - please can you tell me where I can find the cca info that says this and tell me how to tell HL Legal that?

 

Total loan (including the interest for the 4 years) is £11624

 

Half that is: £5812

 

Initial deposit £300 + payments made £1440

 

I'm left with £4372 to pay then, if this is correct.

 

HL Legal (acting for Link Financial) are asking for £7541.18 !!

 

So. to go back to my original question for a minute,

 

What do I do now?

Do I wait and see if they (HL Legal) are going to send me confirmation of who actually owns the debt? (and hope they don't!)

Do I remind them they haven't sent me a Deed of Assignment?

Do I "admit" (I haven't admitted anything yet) that I owe the above figure (£4372) and try to come to some arrangement.

 

Sorry, but their letters are very threatening and I'm really terrified. I own my own home (mortgaged in Joint Names with my fiance) and I'm frightened that they will try to take it. I have two kids!

 

No way will my ex "stump up", he ran away, from me and his other responsibilities, including the many debts he had. This loan was in my sole name anyway, so I can't see how he would be liable, and that's what he would say, if I could overturn the rock he's hiding under.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Under the scare of s Psychiatrist

 

This would certainly apply to some of the psychiatrists I know...

 

lookforinfo's advice is good.

 

A CAB Financial Advisor may be able to assist you, especially if you are unwell and your financial circumstances have changed.

[CAGisforME]

Thansk ScarletPimpernel (and for pointing out the Typo! )

 

The problem I have is that I can't get to the CAB because of the nature of my Disability. Public buildings of ANY nature are a problem (I can't be more specific, to protect my identity, but it's not as simple as them not, for example, having a ramp)

 

So, in effect, I don't have access to the CAB, hence I'm appealing for help here.

 

*runs off to edit first post!*

 

[CAGisforME]

Another "silent" telephone call this morning.

 

Just before the School Run - I'm guessing it's HL.

 

Does anyone have any other suggestions as to what to do?

 

I still have no proof that HL have the right to chase this debt.

 

I just don't know what to do now.

 

Wait for HL to send proof of assignment?

Remind them they haven't?

Write and tell them that as I've given the car back I only have to pay half?

 

 

Arrrrgg

 

So confused

[CAGisforME]

I've just dug all the paperwork that I have for this out and I'm trying to get my head around it all.

 

I have absolutely no record of Link Financial ever writing to me.

 

About four months after I let them have the car back was the first time I heard from HL legal.

 

I wrote back to their original letter stating that I disputed the amount they stated that I owed and that i would appreciate some clarity from GEC on this. I stated that I would not pay them anything until I had sorted this out.

 

In August I got a couple of really nasty letters from them. Threatening allsorts. So I filled out their Income & Expenditure form, told them i still disputed the amount, and offered to pay £25 per month. I sent a cheque with the letter and requested account details so that i could set up a standing order.

 

I got a letter back within 7 days saying they didn't accept my offer. (Surprise surprise) and that they wanted double what I'd offered.

 

I wrote back stating I still disputed the amount owed, but could they please send details so I could pay by Standing Order.

 

Nothing

 

At all

 

Until January

 

When they started this campaign of letters and telephone calls.

 

I'm just so confused. I've tried to think long and hard about what result I want out of this and I've come to the following conclusion.

 

I'd be so grateful if someone could advise how I go about this?

 

1. Clarification of who "owns" the debt.

2. Clarification of the actual amount owed.

3. Clarification of my Income & Expenditure once the above has happened.

4. Reach an agreement with the owner of the debt.

5. Pay monthly instalments by Standing Order.

 

In the meantime I need to get clarification from HL that they aren't going to take this further, as I consider the debt to be in dispute, given that I still have no clarification of who owns the debt, or why they want more than half the original debt back, when the car has been given back to them.

 

My thanks in advance to anyone able to help me.

[allykat]

Hi, I'm not an expert, but at least this will bump the thread up for you

 

did you send off the CCA request from the template on this site? If so, did it include the time frame in which they have to reply with the docs you requested?

 

If they haven't provided you with these you coula send another letter thanking them for their response, but informing them that they have not complied with your request and that the account is in dispute....after all you asked for the deed of assignment didn't you? and they didn't send it, so they are trying to take money from you which isn't legal.

 

Read some of the other threads which may be able to advise you further, until someone comes along with more knowledge than me and can help you.

 

Also....if as you say, the DCA are asking for more than what you owe, it might be worth sending a SAR request if you think you have incurred alot of charges on to the total owing?

 

Good luck

 

P.S

The CAB in my area have a helpline you can phone and an adviser is available to talk to....if you can't get into your local CAB office, it might be worth phoning them and explaining. They will be able to advise you I'm sure and they will probably tell you to report the DCA to Trading Standards for harrassment.

[CAGisforME]

Thanks for your input Allykat.

 

I've had a little advice by PM and I'm hoping my OH will be able to get the agreement scanned this evening so that I can post it and get some advice on whether it would stand up.

 

With regards to the DCA asking for more than I owe, this appears to be because they haven't taken into account that once the vehicle was recovered I only then owed half the borrowed amount (apparently the cca dictate this?) and therefore they are chasing me for the whole amount, less my payments, including their charges for "legal charge" and less the proceeds of the sale of the vehicle.

 

Although this statement is unsigned, so I'm not sure I can trust it!

 

 

I'll await other advice and then call my local CAB if necessary, to see if they can help.

 

I'm not trying to get out of paying what I owe. This is the ONLY debt I have. (Apart from the mortgage!) and therefore just want to set up a monthly payment plan, that I can afford, that isn't going to be "re-negotiated" every two minutes and that can be paid by standing order to save me problems getting to the PO/Bank etc. I also want to ensure I only pay what I owe and that I'm paying it to the right place and not leaving myself open for another DCA to come chasing in years to come.

[CAGisforME]

I've drafted the following letter, as yet unsent:

 

 

I confirm receipt of your letter dated 27th March and it’s enclosures.

However, whilst I acknowledge receipt of the Customer Statement (which I note is unsigned) I have to say that the Hire Purchase Agreement is illegible and therefore I would like to formally request a TRUE copy of this document.

My letter of 25th March also requested a copy of the Deed of Assignment, stating “ownership” of the alleged debt. As yet you have not provided me with this document, since you are a Debt Collection Agency, I would also ask that you supply a signed true copy of the executed deed of assignment for the above referenced agreement. This is an obligation, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

In summary, I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DEBT AND THEREFORE REQUIRE YOU TO SUBSTANTIATE YOUR CLAIMS BY PROVIDING THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTATION BEFORE I CORRESPOND FURTHER :

 

1. True copy of original credit agreement – this needs to be legible

2. Statement of account – now received

3. Copy of the executed deed of assignment from GE Custom to Link Financial.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested and that I consider this matter to be “in dispute” and whilst it remains so, no payment will be forthcoming. I hope to hear from you within the statutory time limit, which commenced on the date you received my original letter.

 

 

What do you think? Should I send this whilst awaiting further advice?

 

[toddle2u]

Send them the letter.

 

You state in you opening post that the statement is unsigned. Is the credit agreement signed by both parties? or can you not determine it from the copy they have sent you?

 

I would also send them the harrassment letter as well so that the phone calls stop and only communicate with you in writing.

 

I would not make any offer of payments or provide them with any more info (i.e I & E statement) until they have provided you with the information requested.

[CAGisforME]

Thanks toddle2u

 

Letter is ready to send. I can't get out today, but i'm sure they can wait for my latest love letter to them until tomorrow!

 

The credit agreement is signed, as far as I can see. I can see my signature. There is a "witness" signature that I don't recognise (and I don't remember anyone witnessing my signature either) and there is a signature supposedly from G E Capital, but it's just a black blob and the date is impossible to make out (the month has definately been altered too!)

 

I sent the harassment letter when I sent the CCA request. They would have been received together.

 

I received the blurry copy of the supposed Agreement and the unsigned statement of account the day after they received my request. Their letter said they had sent what I had requested (Oh, no they didn't!) and that they expected my re-payment proposals within 7 days!

 

I'll send my latest love letter to them instead I think!

[InKogneeToh]

I would also ask that you supply a signed true copy of the executed deed of assignment for the above referenced agreement. This is an obligation, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

 

Hi

 

I am not sure who first suggested on this site that the creditor/DCA has an obligation to send a copy of the deed of assignment under the CCA - but it is NOT correct!!

 

The CCA makes no such requirement and the assignee

of the debt has no 'legal' obligation to send you a copy of the deed of assignment at all!

 

When an agreement is assigned, the assignor or assignee is required to send the debtor written notice of it, either before or just after it occurs - but they often do not. This is usually just a letter advising you of the fact.

 

However, if the new owner of the debt starts court action against the debtor he will have to show (if the debtor pleads it as part of a defence) that he legally owns the debt, that he has advised you of the fact and that he does have a valid deed of assignment.

 

Regards, Pam

[CAGisforME]

Thanks for the clarification of that Pam. I'll re-word the letter before it's sent and push for a clear and legible copy of the agreement.

 

[CAGisforME]

Hi everyone,

 

Well, the saga continues.

 

I sent the letter asking for a LEGIBLE copy of the agreement (I'm sorry I've been unable to post the blurry mess that they sent me, scanner problems!), but I can assure all that it's illegible.

 

I received a response yesterday:

 

"We confirm response of your your letter, the contents of which have been noted.

 

Our client, Asset Link are not obliged to provide you with the Deed of Assignment, due to the fact that GE Capital Woodchester sent a letter advising you of the sale of the your agreement, after which Asset link sent you a Notice of Assignment.

 

As you would have received a copy of the original agreeent are are unable to provide you with no more than a copy.

 

Please forward your proposals of repayment within 7 days of this letter."

 

So, questions:

 

1. I have NO RECORD whatsoever of being sent a letter about the sale of this agreement. I have only ever been contacted by H L Legal & Collections. I have NO MEANS of knowing who owns this debt.

 

2. I did NOT receive a copy of the original agreement, if I did I wouldn't be asking for it now!

 

3. Can they STILL insist I enter into discussion about repayment at this stage?

 

I have so far received: an UNSIGNED statement, a blurry illegible copy of the alleged agreement, and a load of hassle from HL Legal, who do seem to have decided to stop phoning me if nothing else!

 

I've been advised to SAR the original creditors, which I will do after the Bank Holiday weekend, but I would be really grateful if someone could tell me what to say to HL Legal now.

 

Thanks in advance for all help and advice received.

 

:o

[allykat]

this is my opinion, based on what i've read in other threads...

 

if the agreement they sent you was unsigned then it would be unenforcable in a court and they would have to produce the true agreement or a copy, with all the terms specified, including your signature

 

The DCA are acting illegally if they persue a debt which they cannot prove was assigned to them, so they DO have to send you a copy of the deed of assignment, if they don't this amounts to fraud

 

They clearly have not complied with your CCA request, it seems to me like they are trying it on a bit now, probably hoping that you are ignorant to the law

 

as for them insisting you enter into discussion about repayments, no chance! Hopefully someone else will advise you what to do now, but if the CCA request was not honoured then surely they have now defaulted?

[CAGisforME]

Thanks for your comments allykat.

 

Just for clarity:

 

The blurry copy of the agreement that they sent me appeared to have my signature on it, followed by a "witness", who I don't remember being there, and whose signature I don't recognise. There is also a signature on behalf of GE Custom, which is unreadable and the date has definately been altered.

 

 

This copy agreement is a copy of a fax and is unreadable.

 

I've never had a true copy of this, no matter what the DCA say.

 

 

The statement of the account has a bit at the bottom for "GE Custom Signature", but it has not been signed.

 

 

All that said......

 

I have NO PROOF that this DCA is acting on behalf of a Company that has the right to collect this alleged debt.

 

I have NO TRUE COPY of the Agreement. (Only a blurry mess), so I don't know what i am supposed to have signed, or what the terms were etc.

 

 

 

I will NOT be entering into ANY discussions with them about re-payments due to the above.

 

 

 

I would really appreciate some assistance with what to do next.

 

 

Pam suggested I SAR the Original Creditors, which I will do after the BH weekend.

 

In the meantime am I right in thinking that as I have no legible Agreement and no proof of the ownership of the debt, and the fact that the DCA are out of time to produce them, that I can ignore their threats?

 

[InKogneeToh]

this is my opinion, based on what i've read in other threads...

 

if the agreement they sent you was unsigned then it would be unenforcable in a court and they would have to produce the true agreement or a copy, with all the terms specified, including your signature

 

The DCA are acting illegally if they persue a debt which they cannot prove was assigned to them, so they DO have to send you a copy of the deed of assignment, if they don't this amounts to fraud

 

They clearly have not complied with your CCA request, it seems to me like they are trying it on a bit now, probably hoping that you are ignorant to the law

 

as for them insisting you enter into discussion about repayments, no chance! Hopefully someone else will advise you what to do now, but if the CCA request was not honoured then surely they have now defaulted?

 

Hi

 

A creditor/DCA is under no legal obligation to send you a copy of the 'Deed of Assignment',and it is not part of a CCA request. They are, however, supposed to send you written notice of the assignment but many do not!

 

However, IF pleaded by the debtor, they would have to show the actual Deed in court.

 

The CCA requires that ALL copies sent to the debtor under it's various sections must be legible, so they have not yet complied with their obligations.

 

In the 'unreadable' document they have sent, can you make out any part's of the small print that might be referring to any of the following:

 

The credit limit (or a statement as to how it is to be decided and notified to you

 

The Interest rate

 

The amount/frequency of repayments.

 

These are all 'prescribed terms' and ANY agreement that does not contain all of them is totally unenforceable.

 

Regards, Pam

[CAGisforME]

I'll check the blurry mess again and see if any of those things are legible and report back.

 

Thanks for your continued help Pam.

[allykat]

Hi

 

A creditor/DCA is under no legal obligation to send you a copy of the 'Deed of Assignment',and it is not part of a CCA request. They are, however, supposed to send you written notice of the assignment but many do not!

 

 

Hi pam,

 

You are right, they are under no legal obligation, due to the fact that the D of A in many cases, will contain information relating to other debtors. But it is part of every CCA request I've seen and if they can't prove they own the debt, or have been assigned to collect it, then equally the debtor is under no obligation to enter discussion in terms of payment (according to the OFT) and if they did send out a letter initially to prove they had the right to collect, then they should provide proof of this as they would have to in court.

 

DCA's really annoy me with this, when they say they do not have to provide certain bits of information....if they don't supply it, then why should anyone pay them a single penny!

 

There is also a requirement that the CCA they send you be unobscured and completely readable, under the consumer credit act 1974....so they have still not complied with your requests AND any altered information on it, ie, changed date is not acceptable

[Jeff2000]

Hi,

 

Subscribing.

 

Good Luck!

 

 

Jeff.

[InKogneeToh]

Hi pam,

 

You are right, they are under no legal obligation, due to the fact that the D of A in many cases, will contain information relating to other debtors. But it is part of every CCA request I've seen and if they can't prove they own the debt, or have been assigned to collect it, then equally the debtor is under no obligation to enter discussion in terms of payment (according to the OFT) and if they did send out a letter initially to prove they had the right to collect, then they should provide proof of this as they would have to in court.

 

DCA's really annoy me with this, when they say they do not have to provide certain bits of information....if they don't supply it, then why should anyone pay them a single penny!

 

There is also a requirement that the CCA they send you be unobscured and completely readable, under the consumer credit act 1974....so they have still not complied with your requests AND any altered information on it, ie, changed date is not acceptable

 

Hi

 

I have seen the template on this site for a CCA request that mentions an obligation under the Act to send a copy of the DOA but this is not part of any sections of the CCA so I don't know why it was written in that way.

 

I also agree that a debtor should insist on proof of assignment but a written notice of assignment is all that is legally required unless and until the debtor puts the DCA to proof in any court proceedings.

 

If they don't send any notice then IMO the best way to gather info. as to when/how they acquired the debt is by way of a full SAR - i.e. asking for all data from all relevant filing systems. I would recommend this for anyone doing battle with a creditor/DCA anyway as it may throw up all sorts of potentially useful info. and can be well worth the tenner!

 

Regards, Pam

[CAGisforME]

I was going to get the full SAR away on Tuesday.

 

Should this go to Link Financial, who HL Legal are acting for and who HL claim own the debt?

 

or GE Custom, the original Creditors?

 

Thanks

[InKogneeToh]

I was going to get the full SAR away on Tuesday.

 

Should this go to Link Financial, who HL Legal are acting for and who HL claim own the debt?

 

or GE Custom, the original Creditors?

 

Thanks

 

Hi

 

I would send it to the original creditor. They should have recorded when the debt was assigned, who too, and in what amount. Also, if you had any charges applied by them, you should receive details of these as well as long as you emphasise FULL SAR.

 

Regards, Pam

[CAGisforME]

That's great, I'll get on to that on Tuesday.

 

Thanks!