Black Horse Car Finance Agreement

[loothapub]

I currently have a Black Horse agreement loan agreement which is lodged on my motor vehicle.

 

This I thought was an HP agreement until now when I went to various garages to trade it in it said it was a Personal Loan. However the personal loan is lodged on mt vehicle ???????

 

Is this legal ??

 

The reason I ask is that the garage suggested that I handed the car back to Black Horse on the basis I had completed wel over half the payment and this would alleviate a negative equity problem I have withe car. It wasn't until I contacted Black Horse they said it wasnt an HP agreement but a Personal Loan.

 

I dont think this is legal at all - has anyone else had similar problems or experiences ?

 

 

Firsly, I believe that they would not be allowed to register their interest on HPI as they have and will never be able to prove 'interest' in the car. If they say that they do have an interest, then surely this turns the agreement into a conditional sale or hire purchase agreement.

 

 

Secondly, the terms and conditions stating that they have a right to get their money back if you sell the car or dmage it may be an unfair contractual term ?

 

Anyone help ?

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

bump

[sharkie]

I had real problems with BHF, with a motorbike that got written off, but that's a different and long story.

 

I may be wrong but it sounds like the loan is with you but secured against the car, therefore if you try and trade it, a HPI check will show outstanding finance.

 

Do you have a copy of the agreement, it may be worthwhile posting it, and somebody will be able to advise you on its standing.

[thelittleguy]

i am currently in a legal dispute with black horse. they appear to display the ignorance and arrogance of the parent company, lloyds tsb

[loothapub]

I guess no one know the answer then - at a loss as to how to proceed with this ?

[Prolix]

Do you still have the Loan agreement? It should say at the top what type it is.

 

What are you trying to do wit the car?

[havinastella]

Do you still have the Loan agreement? It should say at the top what type it is.

 

What are you trying to do wit the car?

 

 

EXACTLY.

 

My Black Horse Finance has

 

Hire Purchase Agreement regulated etc etc etc etc

 

If it says Loan agreement its a loan which cannot be enforced against the car unless specified on your paperwork.

 

Jogs

[John Atkinson]

You will find that in all cases where BH offer a 'personal loan' facility to a customer for a car, they will register an interest in the vehicle with HPI.

 

They will only remove the info with HPI once the loan has been repaid in full.

 

It is unfair and I guess its BH having the best of both worlds - the consumer has no VT rights - so they are not going to end up having the car returned to them - it also protects the asset as you are unable to sell the car

[loothapub]

I have a negative equity situation with the car so was going to hand it back.

 

It is a personal loan and the paperwork has the vehicle details on it ? There is no mention of it being an HP agreement and speaking to them they state that although it isnt an HP agreement I cant sell the car without paying off the finance as it is registered with HPI.

 

Finnily enough they offered to put me through to there proper personal loan department to change it over which I dont want to do.

 

Seems like Im stuck

[Prolix]

From what you have said you appear to have a Restricted Use DCS agreement (Debtor/Creditor/Supplier) and is therefore regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I am assuming that the trader whom you bought the car from introduced you to Black Horse.

 

Section 94 of the Act gives debtors the right at any time, under a regulated agreement, to discharge their indebtedness.

 

You wouldn't have the right to return the car to them and walk away, but you could ask them for a settlement figure on your loan, sell the car and pay them the balance somehow.

 

If you write asking for a settlement figure, they must give you it within 12 working days. If they fail to give you it within 1 month, contact your local trading standards office as the will have committed a criminal offence!

 

I'm not sure about this business of them registering an interest with HPI. You might want to talk to the Finacial Ombudsman Service about that. First step would be to invoke BH's complaints procedure and get a final response. Then you could make a formal complaint to the Ombudsman. I think you can call them for a quick opinion in the first place, but they will only consider a complaint Black Horse's procedure has been exhausted (or it has taken more than 8 weeks).

[xlfinance]

Hi,

 

I've been having exactly this problem with Black Horse.

 

I have what I believed to be a HP agreement, but turns out to be a Fixed-Sum Loan Agreement.

 

I've gone through the complaints procedure, but with no luck - they literally ignore my letters...they continually send me a single, photocopied, unreadable copy of the agreement.

 

I've written to the Financial Ombudsman Service who have today responded to say that they cannot help, and referred me to the Finance & Leasing Association.

 

I've just checked their website, and there doesn't appear to be any mention of Black Horse on there.

 

I'm going to fight this, since the garage I bought it from (Dixons) is no longer available to help (liquidated last year).

 

Any thoughts on how to proceed? I'm thinking that I need to speak to the Trading Standards office, but do you think I'm wasting my time??

 

Cheers all!!

 

Andrew

[Prolix]

I'm confused as to why the Ombudsman won't get involved as an HP agreement is deemed to be Fixed Sum Credit.

So by the sounds of it you have an HP agreement.

Were you trying to withdraw from the agreement?

[xlfinance]

Hi,

Exactly - I originally found out there was a problem when I wrote to VT the agreement. I've now paid 28 of my 48 payments.

I heard nothing back, so I called and spoke to someone who first raised the issue with the agreement not being HP.

I followed the CCA request process, continually being posted a photocopy of the single page agreement.

I have continually requested copies of the T&Cs so that I can read about termination, but they never respond.

I wrote to complain, waited 8 weeks and finally wrote to the FOS.

Their letter says:

"Thank you for your recent enquiry.

From the information you have provided, it would appear that we cannot deal with your complaint because the business is not covered.

However, it is possible the that Finance & Leasing Association may be able to help you. I would therefore suggest that you contact them..."

It goes on to give details of the F&LA, but their site suggests that they do not cover these guys either.

Any thoughts??

 

Cheers,

 

Andrew

[Prolix]

If possible, I think you should go and see your local Trading Standards people. This seems like a bit of a mystery! They should be able to get to the bottom of it.

[xlfinance]

I'll keep you posted on any progress!!

[kabio01]

After reading threads i have also discovered my car has a registered financial interest on HPI,

i have a fixed loan agreement, a FI implies rights of ownership as BH knowingly prevent selling of car, this is sooooooo illegal i cant believe the cheek!!!,

i rang BH today & asked what legal statute they were relying on to do this, after a long wait they came back to me and referred me to no4 clause on the agreement,

i laughed 'cause no where does 4 state BH have rights on car infact 4 states if you sell...

.i am taking legal advice on this one, ITS ILLEGAL!! anyone advice pls how to proceed am not letting this go! am going court with this one...

[xlfinance]

Hi All,

 

As promised, I'm keeping you updated on this, especially after more people are finding this is an issue.

 

I complained to the FOS, who said they can't help, but I challenged that decision and eventually got them to write to Black Horse on my behalf.

 

Yesterday I recived their final decision letter, which states:

 

"The completed signed agreement was forwarded to us via the supplying dealer and set up on our systems accordingly. If you have any further issues in respect of this matter, this needs to be referred to the supplying dealer."

 

They also go on to comment on my issue with the HPI register:

 

"...as responsible lenders, we did record that the vehicle was purchased by way of a loan with us. This record is made as we are responsible lenders and in an effort to try to prevent possible overindebtedness."

 

The notion that Black Horse are responsible lenders is a joke at best, and actually offensive. The fact that the agreement states that we must settle when we sell the car must be enough.

 

As far as I can see, they can't have this both ways. They have sold me a car by way of a loan. They have secured that loan on the car. But they claim that this is neither HP or a Secured Loan. Surely they can only have it one way??

 

The bottom line is, my letter suggests that we have them on the run - they are trying to pass the buck to the car dealership, who in my case no longer exists. It would be like going to a bank to complain that a loan was mis-sold and them saying "sorry, but the person who sold you it no longer works here. Contact them!"

 

I'm on my way back to the Ombudsman to deal with this!!

 

By the way - my call to Trading Standards was literally a waste of a phone call.

 

Keep fighting!!!

 

Andrew

[speedqueenbob]

It is down to the trader you buy the car from to inform you what kind of agreement you are entering into...

BHF offer personal loans tied against the vehicle normally when you are also financing more than the cars actual worth ie. neg eg etc

this is to guarantee that you DO NOT settle in the usual halfs and thirds way and it also's gets around the consumer credit act so as an individual you do not get the rights you would under an HP agreement.

MORAL of the story is always,always aks the question of the trader as once signed there aint much you can do.........

[kabio01]

thanks ppl; after reading all threads i will be starting court proceedings in the near future, however i will first give bhf a chance too 'fob' me off like its done too everyone else, has anyone contacted bbc watchdog?

 

it appears that no one in 'authority' is prepared to make a legal decision on this, i say the dealer is not obliged to tell you anything, why should he or she? ITS ALL IN THE CONTRACT, -- personal loan agreement, no where does it tell the customer , by the way this car will have a hpi marker untill you settle debt.. ppl lets not waste time. only a judge can sort this out...

[jo5ephedward5]

I had this issue a couple of years ago when I tried to sell my car which is on BH finance – it states its loan but they have register me on the HPI register – they will not remove it despite lots of letters, luckily my farther uses the car and ‘rents’ it off me which will cover the finance – it’s not really fair though as I specifically asked for a loan not HP!

I have further issues with them as I took out PPI, I cancelled this sometime into the agreement but it never got stopped

– I called up the other day to ask why and they said sorry etc etc we will refund you

– think is they have only refunded me a fraction of what I have overpaid in PPI and they have lowered my monthly payments by less than the PPI that I was paying

– I have asked for a break down but they just respond with the total figure I have been refunded and the new monthly payment – no details of how its calculated

– I spoke to their head of PPI and they said they didn’t deal with the kind of agreement I have

– If the head of PPI doesn’t know who does!

– I’m writing my complaint them as we speak

I hope someone gets somewhere with this

– I think I will take them to court over the HPI register issue too

– I wanted to sell this car 3 years ago and have been tied to it!

Can I claim via the small claims court?

[jo5ephedward5]

After reading this earlier in the week i contacted the people who deal with the HPI register and explained the situation many seem to be having...ie being sold a personal loan but being tied to a HPI register.

 

here is their response:

 

Thank you for your query regarding the registration of Personal Loans with HPI Ltd. Unfortunately, as you have not provided us with the Vehicle Registration Mark (VRM) of the vehicle in question, I have not been in a position to check our records regarding it and therefore, I am unable to make personal reference to it regarding this matter. However, below I have outlined HPI’s position in relation to the registration of personal loans in general.

 

As the leading provider of asset registration, HPI offers a service to finance companies whereby they can record an interest in a vehicle, against which they have an outstanding finance agreement. To ensure an open and transparent approach given the complexities of modern financing, we require the finance companies to select the type of finance agreement in question. They can choose from a wide variety of options including Hire Purchase, Leasing, Contract Hire, and Personal Loan to name but a few. Whilst the type of agreement will be disclosed to any future enquirer there are a number of safeguards in place.

 

These safeguards were issued to all Finance & Leasing Association members by way of a set of guidelines, drafted in conjunction with the FLA and HPI. The guidelines cover five main considerations.

 

 

That the Personal Loan in question must be a restricted use loan i.e. it must be used purely for the purpose of a specified asset.

The Personal Loan agreement must make reference to the fact that information will be shared with other organisations.

The agreement must not contain any indication that the finance company claims title to the asset or any restriction on the customer disposing of the asset.

In the interests of responsible lending the agreement must remind the consumer of the need to settle the agreement in the event of the vehicle’s sale.

If the finance company intends to register the asset at an organisation such as HPI then it must be recorded as a Personal Loan.

 

Your query suggests that you feel that your loan provider have acted inappropriately, and in a manner that is contrary to the FLA guidelines which they have received. If this is the case then I recommend that you discuss this directly with the FLA, their contact details are as follows;

 

 

Finance & Leasing Association

2nd Floor

Imperial House

15-19 Kingsway

London

WC2B 6UN

 

Tel: 020 7836 6511

Email: [email protected]

 

 

I hope that this outlines HPI’s position surrounding the registration of Personal Loans in more detail and will be of some assistance to your enquiries. Please feel free to contact me should you have any further enquiries.

 

So it woudl seem that as the paperwork states that the purpose of the loan is for a car that they can tie you to the HPI register...i will look up my agreement and confirm that it says they will share information with other companies [ie HPI] but i'm sure it will say this - i do think its misleading though, i'm tempted to take legal action due to the fact its ambigous imo.

 

its a lot of hassle though as its currently not an issue to me as my farther now has full use of the vehicle and he pays me the money to cover the finance...mmm

[ernie pallas]

This is the exact situation I got into with my car purchase too and through Blackhorse.

I have a car that is worth £3000 and I owe £9500 to Blackhorse.

I believe that Blackhorse and the dealers are protecting each other. The dealers in the past have been exposed to falling car prices and under an HP agreement have been getting lots of cars back giving them the losses.

My loan didnt get confirmed to me until a month after I got the car then I got two different confirmations with different fees.

I wrote to Blackhorse and the financial ombudsman in London.

The Financial ombudsman said because I purchased before the 6th April 2007 it was out side their remit and couldnt do anything, Blackhorse wrote along letter blaming the dealer.

Please everyone remember no personal loans when you buy a car this is a massive problem in the UK and is definitely responsible in part for people not being able to purchase new cars.

Isnt it a laugh, whats the point of low inflation and low interest rates to stimulate the economy when Blackhorse have millions of people tied in to negative equity

 

ERP

[eggbutearth]

I am in a similar situation,

i bought a new Aprilia Tuono in July 07 for £8k, turns out it was a personal vehicle loan, not HP,

i sold this bike in January 09 to pay off some debts, and in the last few weeks i have fallen behind with a number of bills and debts due to illness and have decided to take the plunge and go bankrupt,

i dont own my own home so i really have nothing to lose, but i am worried about the Motorbike i sold,

does black horse have a right to repossess it even though it has been sold and it wasnt HP but a loan agreement?

The forms that i have just received from the county court to apply for personal bankruptcy need to know about any vehicles ive owned in the last 12 months,

but i am unsure of where the bike is to warn the buyer, as he came and bought it from me and all i know is that he is from Hull???

Can BH repossess it?

 

Thanks....Eggbutearth