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    • the claimant in their WS can refer to whatever previous CC judgements they like, as we do in our WS's, but CC judgements do not set a legal precedence. however, they do often refer to judgements like Bevis, those cases do created a precedence as they were court of appeal rulings. as for if the defendant, prior to the raising of a claim, dobbed themselves in as the driver in writing during any appeal to the PPC, i don't think we've seen one case whereby the claimant referred to such in their WS.. ?? but they certainly typically include said appeal letters in their exhibits. i certainly dont think it's a good idea to 'remind' them of such at the defence stage, even if the defendant did admit such in a written appeal. i would further go as far to say, that could be even more damaging to the whole case than a judge admonishing a defendant for not appealing to the PPC in the 1st place. it sort of blows the defendant out the water before the judge reads anything else. dx  
    • Hi LFI, Your knowledge in this area is greater than I could possibly hope to have and as such I appreciate your feedback. I'm not sure that I agree the reason why a barrister would say that, only to get new customers, I'm sure he must have had professional experience in this area that qualifies him to make that point. 🙂 In your point 1 you mention: 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver. I understand the point you are making but I was referring to when the keeper is also the driver and admits it later and only in this circumstance, but I understand what you are saying. I take on board the issues you raise in point 2. Is it possible that a PPC (claimant) could refer back to the case above as proof that the motorist should have appealed, like they refer back to other cases? Thanks once again for the feedback.
    • Well barristers would say that in the hope that motorists would go to them for advice -obviously paid advice.  The problem with appealing is at least twofold. 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver.  And in a lot of cases the last thing the keeper wants when they are also the driver is that the parking company knows that. It makes it so much easier for them as the majority  of Judges do not accept that the keeper and the driver are the same person for obvious reasons. Often they are not the same person especially when it is a family car where the husband, wife and children are all insured to drive the same car. On top of that  just about every person who has a valid insurance policy is able to drive another person's vehicle. So there are many possibilities and it should be up to the parking company to prove it to some extent.  Most parking company's do not accept appeals under virtually any circumstances. But insist that you carry on and appeal to their so called impartial jury who are often anything but impartial. By turning down that second appeal, many motorists pay up because they don't know enough about PoFA to argue with those decisions which brings us to the second problem. 2] the major parking companies are mostly unscrupulous, lying cheating scrotes. So when you appeal and your reasons look as if they would have merit in Court, they then go about  concocting a Witness Statement to debunk that challenge. We feel that by leaving what we think are the strongest arguments to our Member's Witness Statements, it leaves insufficient time to be thwarted with their lies etc. And when the motorists defence is good enough to win, it should win regardless of when it is first produced.   
    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
    • Euro have got a lot wrong and have failed to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4.  According to Section 13 after ECP have written to Arval they should then send a NTH to the Hirer  which they have done.This eliminates Arval from any further pursuit by ECP. When they wrote to your company they should have sent copies of everything that they asked Arval for. This is to prove that your company agree what happened on the day of the breach. If ECP then comply with the Act they are allowed to pursue the hirer. If they fail, to comply they cannot make the hirer pay. They can pursue until they are blue in the face but the Hirer is not lawfully required to pay them and if it went to Court ECP would lose. Your company could say who was driving but the only person that can be pursued is the Hirer, there does not appear to be an extension for a driver to be pursued. Even if there was, because ECP have failed miserably to comply with the Act  they still have no chance of winning in Court. Here are the relevant Hire sections from the Act below.
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
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Asked to accompany colleague to disciplinary


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Guest louis wu

Can't help with what your supposed to do, but I would say your freind has made a good choice in asking you to attend. Your help and advice is always practical, accurate and sensitive.

 

I think your their, just to stop your colleague saying things that will drop themselves in it, but hopefully someone who knows about these things will give you a full rundown.

 

louis

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Hi there Poppynurse. When accompanying someone to a disciplinary hearing you may address the meeting but you cannot answer questions on behalf of your colleague (unless agreed by management).

 

You should talk to your colleague first and help then to make a list of things they would like to say as, sometimes, in meetings of this kind, it can be difficult to remember everyting that is relevant. Quite often people come out of meetings and say "I wish I had remembered to say this/that".

 

It is also important that you make notes throughout the meeting, as your colleague may not be able to take down or remember everything that is said, and if she has to appeal against any decision, the notes may come in useful.

 

Hope it goes OK.

 

Kind Regards

 

Ell-enn

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Ell-enn, can I just point out that by rights only a union official can address the meeting etc, a co worker acting as a witness is just that and can not address the meeting.

Now many companies might be ok with co workers addressing meetings but just as many will not be. Now you both can consult with each other and ask for a short break at anytime, so if your co worker thinks of something important then they must make the other aware so they can ask for the break.

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Ell-enn, can I just point out that by rights only a union official can address the meeting etc, a co worker acting as a witness is just that and can not address the meeting.

 

Now many companies might be ok with co workers addressing meetings but just as many will not be. Now you both can consult with each other and ask for a short break at anytime, so if your co worker thinks of something important then they must make the other aware so they can ask for the break.

 

Ell-enn, as a co-worker you may address the meeting, but you can not speak on behalf of the person you're representing, nor can you answer questions for them.

As someone who has chaired more disciplinaries than I would like to recall I suggest:

Speak to your colleague and ask them to tell you everything. Firstly, reassure them that you will be discreet and will not blab around the work place.

Tell them that some facts may come up at the hearing that they may not have mentioned to you due to embarrassment or think are unimportant. Remind them you're on their side if they are honest and open. I have lost count of the times reps stay silent with a shocked expression on their face.

Take notes at the meeting.

Don't be afraid to call a short halt to consult these notes and to talk to your colleague. If necessary, ask if you may leave the room to consult in private.

Don't be alarmed if the chair calls a break - you may have rattled their case (it happens).

Don't bring up irrelevant subjects like 18 mouths to feed at home and grandmothers who are in prison - the hearing is about workplace conduct.

Ask the chair if they have evidence that your colleague has been given / notified of the company's policies for disciplinaries, grievances and whistleblowing (whichever is relevant). Signed receipt of a company handbook / letter of employment saying these policies are in place and available to all is sufficient for the employer as it is then up to the employee to read these. If there is no such evidence use this fact.

If your colleague did make a mistake encourage them to to say sorry before the meeting ends and to explain how they intend to improve in the future. If necessary ask them to produce an individual development plan with clear and realistic time lines for completion.

This should go a long way as most disciplinary policies do not set out to be punitive but to prevent future wrongdoing, also many companies do not need the stress and expense of a tribunal and will try to resolve the situation in-house.

Above all, the employer does not need have to have proof that a crime or definite misconduct has taken place, just that they have to have a reason to believe it has. They are not a court of law, and in rare instances will be prepared to go to tribunal, so make sure you have the story straight .

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

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Ell-enn, can I just point out that by rights only a union official can address the meeting etc, a co worker acting as a witness is just that and can not address the meeting.

 

Now many companies might be ok with co workers addressing meetings but just as many will not be. Now you both can consult with each other and ask for a short break at anytime, so if your co worker thinks of something important then they must make the other aware so they can ask for the break.

 

Hi Cal, thanks for pointing that out - the company I work for are OK with it, but I take your point that most may not be.

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My advice is based on my opinion and experience only. It is not to be taken as legal advice - if you are unsure you should seek professional help.

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Hi there Poppynurse. When accompanying someone to a disciplinary hearing you may address the meeting but you cannot answer questions on behalf of your colleague (unless agreed by management). Ell-enn

 

Ell-enn, as a co-worker you may address the meeting, but you can not speak on behalf of the person you're representing, nor can you answer questions for them.

 

I thought that's what I'd said :confused: but happy to be corrected

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Please consider making a donation, however small, if you have benefited from advice on the forums

 

 

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My advice is based on my opinion and experience only. It is not to be taken as legal advice - if you are unsure you should seek professional help.

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I have been asked to accompany a colleague to a disciplinary re poor attendance - what am I expected to do?

 

Check your employee handbook.

 

One company's disciplinary rules differ to the next so it is a little difficult to advise you on what you can or cannot do in the meeting.

 

Also, you will have protection from victimisation should you be concerned that your employer will make life difficult for you in the future should you accept.

 

Have a long chat with your colleague and take notes to discover any possible mitigating circumstances as to why their attendance is so poor.

 

The aim should be to try and get as least a penalty against your colleague depending on how serious the poor attendance has been.

 

Will you post up a bit more once you have a better understanding of the case against your colleague?

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