Is PCN valid

[bmwman]

Hello all

 

Hope you can give me some advice. Received a PCN back in Sept 2006 that I beleave is invalid. Also I have not received the Notice to Owner so could not appeal with in the 28 days stipulated. I would like to post the PCN for your information and advice but can work it out.

 

Need Help Please

 

Many Thanks Mark

[green_and_mean]

If you have heard nothing I would not worry it has probably been cancelled.

[bmwman]

Hi green and mean

 

Thank you for your reply but they have not cancelled and I have have a warrant of execution served. Dispite my corrispondence with them and Northampton. How ever Northampton have sent me two forms PE2 and PE3. However I would very much appreciate some help on this matter.

[bmwman]

Copy of PCN

 

 

 

 

got it at last

[green_and_mean]

NPAS - Making a Statutory Declaration

 

You need to make a statutary declaration if you wish to get a new NTO then you can go back to that stage.

[bmwman]

Hello Again

 

Have now managed to post the PCN and would appreciate your comments.

 

Am I right in thinking that all PCNs should state:

 

road traffic act 1991 as amended

 

Date of Issue

 

Time of Issue

 

and NOT have the words your are required to pay

 

Also is there a 5 minuet rule ie: warden notices a parking contravention notes the time say 12.00 does he then have to wait 5 minuets befor issuing the PCN.

 

So you should have a PCN showing at 12.00 to 12.05 time of issue 12.05.

 

Has any one filled out a form PE2 statutory out of time if so could you give me some pointers please

 

 

Many Thanks bmwman

[pt2537]

i also thought that a PCN had to make reference to the traffic management order (bylaw) which had been passed as well. i may be wrong but i remember reading something about this while doing some research into parking

[green_and_mean]

Date of issue is required and on the PCN

 

I dont think ammended is required just RTA 1991

 

There is no observation time required in law for any contravention

 

As for the other bits I'm sure someone else will be along to help soon but since you where in a disabled bay I don't think it appropriate to try to help you get off for whatever reason.

[bmwman]

Hello green and mean

 

Thank you for your reply

 

The reason I was parked in a disabled bay I that my wife and I are both disabled and that I was displaying a Blue disabled badge that had faided although it could still be read in the daylight this PCN was issued as it was getting dark and made it hard to read.

 

As for the as amended bit the reason I ask this is that all the PCNs I have seen have this at the end and thus it includes any ammendments made to the road traffic act after 1991 or am I wrong.

 

Many Thanks bmwman

[green_and_mean]

99.9% of Councils would have cancelled the PCN if you had written in with a photocopy of the valid badge, letting it get to this stage if you had a valid Blue Badge is foolish to say the least. A lot of Councils will even let you off even if you forgot to display the first time if you later produce a valid Badge.

[bmwman]

Hi Green and mean

 

Sent copy to Brighton they sent me copies of photos poor quality shows no information where needed and they are persuing the case.

 

Many Thanks bmwman

[patdavies]

 

I dont think ammended is required just RTA 1991

 

I have to gently disagree.

 

The RTA 1991 only applied to London authorities. Each time a new Council or batch of Councils is added to the DPE regime a further amendment is issued. Until the amendment is issued, the Council(s) concerned cannot lawfully issue PCNs

 

For a non-London Council, it should say Road Traffic Act 1991 (as amended) - anything else does not apply to the authority concerned.

 

I don't know if this has been challenged before, but the adjudicators can be sticklers for things like this. It would be interesting to find out.

[bmwman]

Hello patdavies

 

Thank you for your reply

 

This is only one of the points I am challanging this PCN on the the others are as listed in a previuos post your comments would be appreciated.

 

Swearing Oaths to so I can send PE2 and PE3

[Esio Trot]

I have just read the PCN above and it says within 28 days to pay £60, reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days.

 

14 days from today (when I read the sentence) is 21 September.

 

I will read it again in a week's time, then there are another 14 days again = 28 September!

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I have just read the PCN above and it says within 28 days to pay £60, reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days.

 

14 days from today (when I read the sentence) is 21 September.

 

I will read it again in a week's time, then there are another 14 days again = 28 September!

 

I agree it needs to say from when the period starts.

I would also argue that because there is no "to" time noted there is no proof that the car was parked, only that it was there.

 

The PCN is also lacking a bunch of statutory information. It may be on the reverse but attention is not drawn to it. Attention is drawn to instructions for payment but this is on the payment slip which has been held not to be part of the PCN. There are strong arguments for suggesting that what is on the reverse is not part of the PCN. This was indicated by the judge in the JR of the Barnet case and is therefore binding on the adjudicators.

[patdavies]

I would also argue that because there is no "to" time noted there is no proof that the car was parked, only that it was there.

 

 

For the contravention named, the simple presence is sufficient.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

For the contravention named, the simple presence is sufficient.

 

There may be some technicality but in ordinary language, "parked" implies the passage of time.

 

It remains capable of rebuttal of course.

[dw190]

It also says "For instructions on Payment see overleaf" Problem is it is on the Payment slip which does not form part of the notice.

 

A penalty charge notice must state—

(a) the grounds on which the parking attendant believes that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;

(b) the amount of the penalty charge which is payable;

© that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;

(d) that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by the specified proportion;

(e) that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, a notice to owner may be served by the London authority on the person appearing to them to be the owner of the vehicle;

(f) the address to which payment of the penalty charge must be sent.

[green_and_mean]

There may be some technicality but in ordinary language, "parked" implies the passage of time.

 

It remains capable of rebuttal of course.

 

I have yet to see a PA who can issue a PCN without some passage of time even an instant ticket needs to be filled in taking more than an instant. If you were there at the time the PA decided to issue the ticket and still there for it to be served surely that would imply a passage of time. Not even PAs can make time stand still.

[patdavies]

There may be some technicality but in ordinary language, "parked" implies the passage of time.

 

It remains capable of rebuttal of course.

 

We're obviously playing with semantics here, but the vehicle does not have to be parked. It merely has to be stationary.

 

(1) Where, in the case of a stationary vehicle in a designated parking place, a parking attendant has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle, he may—

(a) fix a penalty charge notice to the vehicle; or

(b) give such a notice to the person appearing to him to be in charge of the vehicle.

(2) For the purposes of this Part of this Act, a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle, by the owner of the vehicle, if—

(a) the vehicle has been left—

(i) otherwise than as authorised by or under any order relating to the designated parking place; or

(ii) beyond the period of parking which has been paid for;

(b) no parking charge payable with respect to the vehicle has been paid; or

© there has, with respect to the vehicle, been a contravention of, or failure to comply with, any provision made by or under any order relating to the designated parking place.

[patdavies]

Not even PAs can make time stand still.

 

I've met a couple who thought themselves omnipotent:D:eek:

[green_and_mean]

We're obviously playing with semantics here, but the vehicle does not have to be parked. It merely has to be stationary.

 

Whilst agreeing to a certain degree the use of stopped and parked in different contraventions differentiates between the two. You can be stationary on an 02 restriction for example but not in contravention since dropping of collecting passengers is permitted. The deffinition of parked therefore would seem to be stationary other than for the purpose of dropping off/picking up passengers. The quote you have shown is not the deffinition of parking but just the requirment for the vehicle to be stationary for a contravention to have taken place.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Whilst agreeing to a certain degree the use of stopped and parked in different contraventions differentiates between the two. You can be stationary on an 02 restriction for example but not in contravention since dropping of collecting passengers is permitted. The deffinition of parked therefore would seem to be stationary other than for the purpose of dropping off/picking up passengers. The quote you have shown is not the deffinition of parking but just the requirment for the vehicle to be stationary for a contravention to have taken place.

 

Kinda where I was going.

[green_and_mean]

I still cannot fathom out why the original poster did not appeal the PCN on the grounds the contravention did not take place since there was a badge in the car. Even if it was too dark to read the badge a valid badge was displayed? If PAs cannot read a badge due to fading etc its usual to issue a PCN which is simply cancelled if the Council receive proof of current entitlement to a badge.

[bmwman]

Hello Every One

 

Have been reading the posts Thank You

 

Further to my reference to the heading on this PCN

 

Road Traffic Act 1991

 

Contacted Brighton council and made enquiry as to when these Disable bays came into force 16th April 2005 does this bylaw then become part of the road traffic act as an ammendment if so then this PCN cannot be used.

 

Have also found DoTs Model Ticket

Look at the following Link

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tpm/lacircular195/partivhowtocollectpenaltycharges

 

Many Thanks bmwman