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    • Hi, the vehicle went to Audi Chingford on Thursday 13th May. I did state beforehand that I only wanted a diagnostic. The technician out of courtesy opened the drain letting huge deposits of water escape the seals. Video evidence was provided via AUDI cam. The link for the audi cam has been forwarded to BMW and Motonovo. I spoke to branch manager explained the situation and he stated he would sent me an email outlining the issue. Audi state this is not really an issue and more of a design flaw. However, the seals still have water ingress. I purchased the vehicle with £0 deposit on a 60 months HP plan for £520.00. The vehicle total was £21000. I did not go for any extended warranty. I live almost 70 miles away from the aftersales centre in Peterborough. I have previously uploaded the document I forwarded to BMW however it was in word format. I have had to buy a new tyre almost three days after purchasing vehicle. BMW still have not compensated me for the v62 cost as they said they would. 
    • I would suggest that you stop trying to rely on legal theory – as you understand it. Firstly, because we are dealing with practical/pragmatic situations and at a low value level where these arguments tend not to work. Secondly, because you clearly have misunderstood the assessment of quantum where there are breaches of obligations. The formula that you have cited above is the method of loss calculation in torts. In contract it is entirely different. The law of obligations generally attempts to remedy the breach. This means that in tort, damages seek to put you into the position you would have been in had the breach not occurred. In other words it returns you to your starting position – point zero. Contract damages attend put you into the position that you would have been had the breach not occurred but this is not your starting position, contract damages assume that the agreement in dispute had actually been carried out. This puts you into your final position. You sold an item for £XXX. Your expectation was that you your item would be correctly delivered and that you would be the beneficiary of £XXX. Your expectation loss is the amount that you sold the item for and that is all you are entitled to recover. If you want, you can try to sue for the larger sum – and we will help you. But if they ask for evidence of the value of the item as it was sold then I can almost guarantee that either you will be obliged to settle for the lesser sum – or else a judge will give you judgement but for the lesser sum. This will put you to the position that you would have been had there been no breach of contract. I understand from you now that when you dispatch the item you declared the retail cost to you and not your expected benefit of £XXX. To claim for the retail value in the circumstances would offend the rules relating to betterment. If you want to do it then we will help you – but don't be surprised if you take a tumble.  
    • I was caught speeding 3 times in the same week, on the same road. All times were 8-12mph higher than the limit. I was offered the course for the first offense and I now need to accept the other 2 offenses. I just want to be ready for what might come. Will I get the £100 fine and 3 points for each of them or do I face something more severe?  These are my only offenses in 8 years of driving.
    • I'll get my letter drafted this evening. Its an item I sold, which I'm also concerned about, as whilst I don't have my original purchase receipt (the best I have is my credit card statement showing a purchase from Car Audio Centre), I do unfortunately have the eBay listing where I sold it for much less. But as I said before this is now a question of compensation: true compensation would seek to put me back into the position I was in before the loss ie: that title would remain with me until my buyer has accepted this, and so compensation should be that which would be needed to replace the lost item. But in the world of instant electronic payment, it could be argued that as I had already been paid, the title to the goods had already transferred, and I was required to refund the buyer after the loss. And so, despite my declared value being the retail price - that which is needed to return me to my pre-sales position, the compensatory value should be the value I sold it for, which being a second-hand item from a private seller is lower. I still believe that I should be claiming for the item's full value, rather than how much I sold it for, as this is the same for insurance: we don't insure the value we paid, but rather the value of the item to put us back into the position we would be in if we ever needed to claim. Its for the loss adjuster to argue the toss
    • amusing that 'bad economic judgement on behalf of prior party ISN'T a major reason to wingers to move to deform yet immigration is, where record levels of such has been driven by the right wings terrible brexit and the later incompetent dog whistle 'proposals largely driven to whistle to the right wingnuts Just seems to confirm the are clueless numpties 'wetting their own shoes   Has farage bought a property in Clacton yet?   yet concern for the NHS is listed as a major issue even by those saying they are moving to deform  
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    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Are any caggers aware of customers that have been taken to court and the "router" account used as proof of debt. If so could a "class action" not be started for some kind of fraud or dirct theft. The only way for real change is at government level and the only way to get them off their expenses-stuffed backsides is negative publicity.

 

It's been mentioned several times anecdotally but I've not noticed anybody actually stating it's been used against them?

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RBSs latest offers to settle are not headed without prejudice so I guess these may be shown to the Judge.

 

If those letters are part of a genuine offer to settle and the chain was started with a 'Without Prejudice' letter then the whole chain is considered privileged.

 

Of course you may disclose your own privileged letters, however if they reveal the contents of the other side's letter then you can't.

 

A letter, even headed 'Without Prejudice', that is not part of a genuine offer to settle is not privileged and can be disclosed by either party.

If you find my advice helpful - please click on my scales

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The small print - any advice I give is freely given on the understanding that I am a layman and am not legally qualified in anyway.

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If those letters are part of a genuine offer to settle and the chain was started with a 'Without Prejudice' letter then the whole chain is considered privileged.

 

Of course you may disclose your own privileged letters, however if they reveal the contents of the other side's letter then you can't.

 

A letter, even headed 'Without Prejudice', that is not part of a genuine offer to settle is not privileged and can be disclosed by either party.

 

 

That's very interesting....

 

There are situations where "without prejudice" correspondence can be shown during proceedings, but I can't remember the precise reasons for this right now. Maybe JC can clarify the circumstances for us?

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Are any caggers aware of customers that have been taken to court and the "router" account used as proof of debt. If so could a "class action" not be started for some kind of fraud or dirct theft. The only way for real change is at government level and the only way to get them off their expenses-stuffed backsides is negative publicity.

 

It's been mentioned several times anecdotally but I've not noticed anybody actually stating it's been used against them?

 

The transitional account (aka as a tracker loan...pre 2000) is what they would sue on, the "router" account is presented to auditors. And, yes there is evidence.

 

PW

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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Another customer's "transitional" account.

 

Naughty, naughty.......makes ya sick dunit!

 

 

StatementTransioningaccount.jpg

Edited by paulwlton

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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Paul, I am sorry mate, but I am having trouble getting my head around how it works.

I understand that an account is transferred from the local branch to Telford-after a CCJ has been lodged, or when there is little hope of the debt being recovered in the short term.

 

Once in Telford, I assume that this becomes Transitional account -or Tracker account, where they add whatever charges are incurred by being handled by Telford on to the existing defaulted account, which would already contain a fair amount of charges for missed payments, returned d/debits and legal fees etc.etc. while it had been running in the local branch.

This tracking account is presumably what the customer gets when they send

the bank and SAR.

 

But in addition to that account, Telford also set up a Router account which charges compound interest on the debt even when the account is subject to a Court Order. Is there anything else that is different between the tracker account and the Router account?

 

You said that it is the Router account that is shown to the auditors. Should they not pick up on interest being charged when it shouldn't?

 

You also said that there have been situations where the Router account has been used in Court cases rather than the Transitional one. So not a well kept secret the Router account. I assume that would have been an error on the banks part -putting forward the wrong account? Or would both accounts be the same in this case, since the bank could charge interest on that account as it was not subject to a Court order?

 

I note that you have now shown a number of Router accounts, but they aren't much of a help [to me at least-I am a bit thick] since there is no copy posted of the original account or transitional account even, to show how the accounts actually differ.

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Paul, I am sorry mate, but I am having trouble getting my head around how it works.

I understand that an account is transferred from the local branch to Telford-after a CCJ has been lodged, or when there is little hope of the debt being recovered in the short term.

 

Once in Telford, I assume that this becomes Transitional account -or Tracker account, where they add whatever charges are incurred by being handled by Telford on to the existing defaulted account, which would already contain a fair amount of charges for missed payments, returned d/debits and legal fees etc.etc. while it had been running in the local branch.

This tracking account is presumably what the customer gets when they send

the bank and SAR.

 

But in addition to that account, Telford also set up a Router account which charges compound interest on the debt even when the account is subject to a Court Order. Is there anything else that is different between the tracker account and the Router account?

 

You said that it is the Router account that is shown to the auditors. Should they not pick up on interest being charged when it shouldn't?

 

You also said that there have been situations where the Router account has been used in Court cases rather than the Transitional one. So not a well kept secret the Router account. I assume that would have been an error on the banks part -putting forward the wrong account? Or would both accounts be the same in this case, since the bank could charge interest on that account as it was not subject to a Court order?

 

I note that you have now shown a number of Router accounts, but they aren't much of a help [to me at least-I am a bit thick] since there is no copy posted of the original account or transitional account even, to show how the accounts actually differ.

 

Local branch send customers accounts to CMS Telford.

 

CMS change account numbers and alter nature of accounts - the accounts are now known as "recovery" accounts and start to accrue administrative Interest.

 

The customer's accounts are assigned to a "router" account - the "router" is a mechanism for aggregating the customer's Indebtedness under several accounts.

 

Auditors don't see Interest accruing in the "router" account as the Interest accrues in the customers "recovery" accounts.

 

CMS used this practice throughout the nineties.... excuse being their system was defective up until 2000.

 

I am privy to pre and post transitioning statements.

 

Paul

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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Hi Paul, good to have you back.

 

Part of a Statement from Mark Johnson,Group Legal,RBS. 14 August 2009.

 

 

"To begin with I should clarify that the procedure in the 1990's when a customer's branch based account went into default was for the account to be closed to prevent further usage. The outstanding debt was then transferred to our Credit Management Services Department("CMS")to recover the debt, and in doing this the account would be given a new account reference number to allow us to track the debt, any interest thereon and enable us to track any payments made and properly apply them to the account. This is the "transitioning" process which I understand has been referred to in previous correspondence."

 

Firstly, until this letter we had never ever heard the word "transitioning".

He is basically saying, that these are our origonal accounts but with new numbers. So you would assume then, that the "Transitioning" process would be seamless, an instant click on the computer. So explain this.One of my "New Transitioned" accounts is opened on the 18 March 1997. But my current account, which I hadn't used for over 3 years, had no valid debit/cheque quarantee card for, was still accruing interest on the 27 March 97, and wasn't closed until 4 April 97. :-?

Is it possible that the RBS statement is a load of utter rubbish.

 

Debs

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Hi Paul, good to have you back.

 

Part of a Statement from Mark Johnson,Group Legal,RBS. 14 August 2009.

 

 

"To begin with I should clarify that the procedure in the 1990's when a customer's branch based account went into default was for the account to be closed to prevent further usage. The outstanding debt was then transferred to our Credit Management Services Department("CMS")to recover the debt, and in doing this the account would be given a new account reference number to allow us to track the debt, any interest thereon and enable us to track any payments made and properly apply them to the account. This is the "transitioning" process which I understand has been referred to in previous correspondence."

 

Firstly, until this letter we had never ever heard the word "transitioning".

He is basically saying, that these are our origonal accounts but with new numbers. So you would assume then, that the "Transitioning" process would be seamless, an instant click on the computer. So explain this.One of my "New Transitioned" accounts is opened on the 18 March 1997. But my current account, which I hadn't used for over 3 years, had no valid debit/cheque quarantee card for, was still accruing interest on the 27 March 97, and wasn't closed until 4 April 97. :-?

Is it possible that the RBS statement is a load of utter rubbish.

 

Debs

 

Debs

 

The word "transitioning" is short for - let's screw the customer and cook the books at the same time.

 

Paul

Edited by paulwlton
Defamatory comment....I should know better!

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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Paul

 

You know about this, but for everyone else here's a bit of info.

 

The RBS obtianed a ccj against me and Mrs D in 1999, included within their POC were 3 accounts, our business CURRENT account, Mrs D's personal CURRENT account and my personal CURRENT account.

 

They got Judgment! Only because we didn't defend it. (No CAG at the time). We NEVER admitted the debt on the Courts Admission Form, but we didn't attend court.

 

At the time my current account was overdrawn by around £2000 and the bank got judgment on this amount.

 

We paid £300 per month for 7 Years to try to clear our accounts. We stopped paying. So they now have a Charging Order on our home.

 

The bank tells Paul that they don't apply post judgment interest!! Well, this same account has now risen to £15,000 after judjment, even though we have been paying £300 per month. These payment have been applied to different accounts no doubt.

 

I am now being pusued by Capquest for full payment of £15,000 on my personal account that was £2000 on the original POC's or they will take me to court and apply for a CO on my home!!!

 

Don't they realise they already have one!!!!!!!!

 

Now, I know if they do take me to Court for an alleged debt that they already have judgment on then I will have a Field Day.

 

Here's the last statement that I have (obtained under DSAR)

 

Manual-Intervention-ListMrD.gif

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Paul

 

 

We paid £300 per month for 7 Years to try to clear our accounts. We stopped paying. So they now have a Charging Order on our home.

 

 

Manual-Intervention-ListMrD.gif

 

How much was your total debt because you paid them back over £25,000 over the 7 years?

 

Odious little blood-suckers

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At the time my current account was overdrawn by around £2000 and the bank got judgment on this amount.

 

We paid £300 per month for 7 Years to try to clear our accounts. We stopped paying. So they now have a Charging Order on our home.

 

 

are you taking steps to recover monies they have ro**** from you.

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At the time my current account was overdrawn by around £2000 and the bank got judgment on this amount.

 

We paid £300 per month for 7 Years to try to clear our accounts. We stopped paying. So they now have a Charging Order on our home.

 

The bank tells Paul that they don't apply post judgment interest!! Well, this same account has now risen to £15,000 after judjment, even though we have been paying £300 per month. These payment have been applied to different accounts no doubt.

 

 

Words fail me!!!! :mad::mad::mad:

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Paul

I didnt think i could be more disgusted at RBS's tactics, but as more and more router accounts are posted on here, i am starting to think that this is bigger than i could have imagined

 

exposure - lots of it - is needed

 

whats the next step?

post office WON 12/11/06

 

abbey.LBA sent 30/10/06.MCOL claim submitted 8/11/06.allocation questionnaire sent 16/12/06.schedule of charges sent 16/12/06.WON

 

2nd abbey claim SAR sent 3/1/07.WON.complaint letter sent 18/1/08

 

alliance and Leicester.WON

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How much was your total debt because you paid them back over £25,000 over the 7 years?

 

It was origonally £25k, a business debt,& 2 personal accounts.

We paid £6000 into an IVA, but that failed after 3 years. Paid £25k towards CCJ. According to last set of statements(2009) total debt, stands at £110+k.

 

According to the bank we only owe £39k:( but for accounting purposes they claim we owe £110K & rising daily,:confused:.As Paul says, they are using debt ledger accounts to artificially inflate there balance sheet, & have since the 1990's been using these accounts to make themselves appear more profitable then they actually were. Executives have recieved bonuses based on these accounts (The interest accruing is 100% profit), they can borrow & offset there own debts against these "Internal" accounts.

Debs

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It was origonally £25k, a business debt,& 2 personal accounts.

We paid £6000 into an IVA, but that failed after 3 years. Paid £25k towards CCJ. According to last set of statements(2009) total debt, stands at £110+k.

 

According to the bank we only owe £39k:( but for accounting purposes they claim we owe £110K & rising daily,:confused:.As Paul says, they are using debt ledger accounts to artificially inflate there balance sheet, & have since the 1990's been using these accounts to make themselves appear more profitable then they actually were. Executives have recieved bonuses based on these accounts (The interest accruing is 100% profit), they can borrow & offset there own debts against these "Internal" accounts.

Debs

 

Debs

 

The OFT want your evidence....I'll pm you the email.

 

Paul

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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And the Government saw fit to bail RBS out. :mad:

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Paul, Sparkie, Debbbsy,

 

The implication of your accusations is that there is a substantial amount of public money invested in RBS at risk. In which case it would be appropriate to draw this to the attention of the National Audit Office.

 

Members of the public with concerns about the misuse of public money

 

Central government spending

 

 

Concerns regarding central government spending may come under our remit.

 

Concerns should be addressed in writing to the Comptroller and Auditor General who will deal with the matter as appropriate:

 

Amyas Morse

Comptroller and Auditor General

Private Office

National Audit Office

157-197 Buckingham Palace Road

London

SW1W 9SP

I would also copy any letter to the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, which supervises the work of the NAO:

 

Mr Edward Leigh MP

Chairman

Public Accounts Committee

Committee Office

House of Commons

7 Millbank

London

SW1P 3JA

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Why the hell have the MP's involved in this not tabled questions in the house?

 

We know through you guys of at least 2 that have intimate knowledge of the situation in the house of Denmark.

 

Make that house of Frazier (or John Lewis)

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