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    • I understand confusion with this thread.  I tried to keep threads separate because there have been so many angles.    But a team member merged them all.  This is why it's hard to keep track. This forum exists to help little people fight injustice - however big or small.  Im here to try get a decent resolution. Not to give in to the ' big boys'. My "matter' became complicated 'matters' simply because a lender refused to sell a property. What can I say?  I'll try in a nutshell to give an overview: There's a long lease property. I originally bought it short lease with a s.146 on it from original freeholder.  I had no concerns. So lender should have been able to sell a well-maintained lovely long lease property.  The property was great. The issue is not the property.  Economy, sdlt increases, elections, brexit, covid, interest hikes etc didn't help.  The issue is simple - the lender wanted to keep it.    Before repo I offered to clear my loan.  I was a bit short and lender refused.  They said (recorded) they thought the property was worth much more and they were happy to keep accruing interest (in their benefit) until it reached a point where they felt they could repo and still easily quickly sell to get their £s back.  This was a mistake.  The market was (and is) tough.   2y later the lender ceo bid the same sum to buy the property for himself. He'd rejected higher offers in the intervening period whilst accruing interest. I had the property under offer to a fantastic niche buyer but lender rushed to repo and buyer got spooked and walked.  It had taken a long time to find such a lucrative buyer.  A sale which would have resulted in £s and another asset for me. Post repo lender had 1 offer immediately.  But dragged out the process for >1y - allegedly trying to get other offers. But disclosure shows there was only one valid buyer. Lender appointed receiver (after 4 months) - simply to try acquire the freehold.  He used his powers as receiver to use me, as leaseholder, to serve notice on freeholders.  Legally that failed. Meanwhile lender failed to secure property - and squatters got in (3 times).  And they failed to maintain it.  So freeholders served a dilapidations notice (external) - on me as leaseholder (cc-ed to lender).   (That's how it works legally) I don't own the freehold.  But I am a trustee and have to do right by the freeholders.  This is where matters got/ get complicated.  And probably lose most caggers.   Lawyers got involved for the freeholders to firstly void the receiver enfranchisement notice. Secondly, to serve the dilapidations notice.  The lack of maintenance was in breach of lease and had to be served to protect fh asset. The lender did no repairs. They said a buyer would undertake them. Which was probably correct. If they had sold. After 1y lender finally agreed to sell to the 1st offeror and contracts went with lawyers.  Within 1 month lender reneged.  Lender tried to suggest buyer walked. Evidence shows he/ his lawyers continued trying to exchange (cash) for 4 months.  Evidence shows lender and receiver strategy had been to renege and for ceo to take control.   I still think that's their plan. Lender then stupidly chose to pretty much bulldoze the property.  Other stuff was going on in the background. After repo I was in touch by phone and email and lender knew post got to me.   Despite this, after about 10 months (before and then during covid), they deliberately sent SDs and eventually a B petition to an incorrect address and an obscure small court.  They never served me properly.  (In hindsight I understand they hoped to get a backdoor B - so they could keep the property that way.)  Eventually the random court told them to email me by way of service.  At this point their ruse to make me B failed.  I got a lawyer (friend paid). The B petition was struck out. They’d failed to include the property as an asset. They were in breach of insolvency rules. Simultaneously the receiver again appointed lawyers to act on my behalf as leaseholder. This time to serve notice on the freeholders for a lease extension.  He had hoped to try and vary the strict lease. Evidence shows the already long length of lease wasn't an issue.  The lender obviously hoped to get round their lack of permission to do works (which they were already doing) by hoping to remove the strict clauses that prevent leaseholder doing alterations.   The extension created a new legal angle for me to deal with.  I had to act as trustee for freeholders against me as leaseholder/ the receiver.  Inconsistencies and incompetence by receiver lawyers dragged this out 3y.  It still isn't properly resolved.  Meanwhile - going back to the the works the lender undertook. The works were consciously in breach of lease.  The lender hadn't remedied the breaches listed in the dilapidations notice.  They destroyed the property.  The trustees compiled all evidence.  The freeholders lawyers then served a forfeiture notice. This notice started a different legal battle. I was acting for the freeholders against what the lender had done on my behalf as leaseholder.  This legal battle took 3y to resolve. The simple exit would have been for lender to sell. A simple agreement to remedy the breaches and recompense the freeholders in compensation - and there's have been clean title to sell.  That option was proposed to them.   This happened by way of mediation for all parties 2y ago.  A resolution option was put forward and in principle agreed.  But immediately after the lender lawyers failed to engage.  A hard lesson to learn - mediation cannot be referred to in court. It's considered w/o prejudice. The steps they took have made no difference to their ability to sell the property.  Almost 3y since they finished works they still haven't sold. ** ** I followed up some leads myself.  A qualified cash buyer offered me a substantial sum.  The lender and receiver both refused it.   I found another offer in disclosure.  6 months later someone had apparently offered a substantial sum via an agent.  The receiver again rejected it.  The problem of course was that the agent had inflated the market price to get the business. But no-one was or is ever going to offer their list price.  Yet the receiver wanted/wants to hold out for the list price.  Which means 1y later not only has it not sold - disclosure shows few viewings and zero interest.  It's transparently over-priced.  And tarnished. For those asking why I don't give up - I couldn't/ can't.  Firstly I have fiduciary duties as a trustee. Secondly, legal advice indicates I (as leaseholder) could succeed with a large compensation claim v the lender.  Also - I started a claim v my old lawyer and the firm immediately reimbursed some £s. That was encouraging.  And a sign to continue.  So I'm going for compensation.  I had finance in place (via friend) to do a deal and take the property back off the lender - and that lawyer messed up bad.   He should have done a deal.  Instead further years have been wasted.   Maybe I only get back my lost savings - but that will be a result.   If I can add some kind of complaint/ claim v the receiver's conscious impropriety I will do so.   I have been left with nothing - so fighting for something is worth it. The lender wants to talk re a form of settlement.  Similar to my proposal 2y ago.  I have a pretty clear idea of what that means to me.  This is exactly why I do not give up.  And why I continue to ask for snippets of advice/ pointers on cag.  
    • It was all my own work based on my previous emails to P2G which Bank has seen.
    • I was referring to #415 where you wrote "I was forced to try to sell - and couldn't." . And nearer the start in #79 .. "I couldn't sell.  I had an incredibly valuable asset. Huge equity.  But the interest accrued / the property market suffered and I couldn't find a buyer even at a level just to clear the debt." In #194 you said you'd tried to sell for four years.  The reason for these points is that a lot of the claims against for example your surveyor, solicitor, broker, the lender and now the receiver are mainly founded in a belief that they should have been able to do something but did not. Things that might seem self evident to you but not necessarily to others. Pressing these claims may well need a bit more hard evidence, rather than an appeal to common sense. Can you show evidence of similar properties, with similar freehold issues, selling readily? And solid reasons why the lender should have been able to sell when you couldn't.
    • You can use a family's address.   The only caveat is for the final hearing you'd need to be there in person   HOWEVER i'd expect them to pay if its only £200 because costs of attending will be higher than that
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DVLA Fine


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Hi Guys,

 

Not sure if it's advice I want or just sympathy!!!

 

Long story but I'll keep it as short as possible.

Basically I couldn't afford to tax my car so I SORNed it and kept it off road (or so I thought) I left it in a car park!! Now I accept that this is officially classed as a public road and paid the 2 parking fines that were put on the car. Unfortunately there is nowhere I could put the car that was "off road" so to avoid further fines and although it broke my heart I reluctantly had to scrap a perfectly good car.

Then to my horror I received 2 further fines from the DVLA saying that the two parking offences had been reported to them and they were looking for an out of court settlement for £96 and £178 respectively for the two reported offences which had to be paid within 14 days and could not be paid in instalments!!

 

I suppose what I want to know is -

 

Is it right to be fined twice (x2) for having an unlicenced vehicle in the same week?

What is likely to happen if it does go to court as there is no way I can pay £274 within 14 days?

 

Any help or advice good or bad would be welcomed.:-?

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Hi Rob.

 

The letter from the DVLA states that the original penalties were for not displaying a valid excise licence and the details of the offence are then passed to the Agency to establish whether the vehicle was licenced on the date of the offence. This is a seperate offence.

 

As far as timesales go, both tickets were issued within a week of each other and the letters from the DVLA came about two weeks later.

 

I am contemplating writing to the Agency with an offer of payment by instalments. (although their letter says that this is unacceptable) I would hope that this will be looked upon favourably by the courts if it gets to that stage.

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If you don't have a tax disc, you don't have one to display, and their records would show that. As I understand it they should only be going after you for not having a current tax disc on the day in question.

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Actually Rob, They're not threatening court over the penalty of not displaying a tax disc, I've paid those fines (£80). They're threatening legal action over the fines for not having a tax disc (£274).

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No, it's not a demand for back tax, it's an out of court settlement offer.

 

Doesn't seem to be any formula for working these figures out, one was for £96 and the other for £178 dated a week apart. The car had only been SORNed for 2 months and was taxed prior to this.

 

ps. I have till Friday 29th July to pay before they start court proceedings!

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That does seem very odd. How on earth have they arrived at these figures, especially as you have already paid 2 £80 fines for not displaying a tax disc? Have they informed you in their letters what legislation they are using to "enable" you to settle up before they intitiate court proceedings? And what court proceedings are they threatening, is it in the county court?

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The letter is headed "Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994"

Doesn't state what form the court proceedings would take.

There is an information leaflet INF51 but there is no link to it on the website.

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I suspect it would be magistrates court. It looks to me as if DVLA are trying to settle before court so that they get money in their coffers. If it goes to magistrates court and you are fined then the fines would go straight to the treasury.

 

I'm wondering if you should write to them to ask why it is having paid 2 fines for failing to display that they are now being pursued for not having the tax, especially as at the time of the fail to display the vehicle was not taxed? The offence of failing to display the road tax is usually in relation to where a vehicle is actually taxed but it is not displayed. It looks to me as if they are trying to have 2 bites of the cherry.

 

 

 

Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c. 22)

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It appears that the original 'parking tickets' had absolutely nothing to do with parking and were, in fact, FPNs for failure to display.

 

Failure to display is a police matter and is dealt with by them via the Magistrates' Court if necessary. They also inform the DVLA.

 

The DVLA have now come after the OP for having an untaxed vehicle on the public highway and are imposing a penalty plus back tax.

 

These are two entirely separate offences and dealt with separately.

 

I am somewhat surprised that they have tried to apply two penalties as I would consider it a continuing offence and only the greater penalty should be payable.

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This all sounds very similar to the one and only time that I have fallen foul of the DVLA. Registered the wife's car SORN as we were waiting for it to be sold, thought it was on a private land - turned out it wasn't. The Community Wardens operating at the time were paying local kids £1 a time for every untaxed vehicle they could find in the area and we got summonsed for two offences within a week. Would not entertain arguments, nor would I settle prior to court but sent a lengthy letter of mitigation to the Court and fined a nominal £25 for each offence plus £60 costs. Not allowed to pay by instalments as I have a credit card - pay up immediately or else.

 

The fine was less than the DVLA wanted out of court, but after the inclusion of costs it worked out about the same.

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Pat, you have called it exactly right.

 

Sidewinder thanks for your input.

 

I realise that I am in the wrong on this one, the thing that bothers me is that I have to pay £274 within 14 days or they will take me to court. Well I don't have a credit card or £274 slushing around so it looks like court!!

 

Cheers.

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Was the car park a public road ?

 

This may seem a silly question but for the purposes of Road Tax , the land, road or car park has to be 'maintained at public expence' And that does not include many Council owned carparks.

I park in a parking bay adjacent to council flats, and it turns out that because it's associated with the flats it is NOT a public road.:D

 

Just an idea.

I don't always believe what I say, I'm just playing Devils Advocate

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StormWarrior,

 

Unfortunately it seems that it was.

It is the local swimming pool car park and the whole street parks here at night as traffic wardens patrol the street we live on from early in the morning. This is why I thought I would be okay there.

 

Sanddancer,

 

Thankfully yes, and I got a reply from them confirming it so no fine this time!!

 

Does anyone have any idea what is likely to happen if this goes to court?

ie. What sort of fine? costs etc....

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local swimming pool car park

 

There is still a chance that it is not a public road as defined by the act.

If it is owned and operated by the local council, it may not be 'maintained at the public expense'.

A quick trip to the local council offices and enquire who maintains it and who is liable for its maintainance. Don't say why, or hint at liability, might even be in the swimming pool operators contract.:)

Are there ticket machines which 'contribute to the maintainance costs'?

I don't always believe what I say, I'm just playing Devils Advocate

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  • 2 weeks later...

Would it not have been cheaper to have paid the Road Tax? :)

 

Hope you have got it sorted and the next car you have will be taxed and no problems...

 

I was fortunate... I've got a drive so was able to get SORN.

 

BUT I forgot to send the form they sent to me to say it was still off road..really stupid of me I know (the time went so quick..couldn't beleive it was a year!)...and was fined £60... Which I paid cursing myself all the way to the Post Office...LOL! :-D

IF I get another car I will not be making the same mistake.. Which goes to the opening question.....

In my case yes!....it would have been cheaper...!

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The best way to declare SORN is to do it online. Once you have done it they send a confirmation e-mail straightaway. You then have cast iron proof that you made the declaration. I wouldn't do it any other way.

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Hi... Rob S

I sent it off via the post and received the SORN notice..this was before I had the computer...

They sent me a reminder and I thought "its not time for that yet" and promptly forgot about it until I got the letter about the fine...

It was no way their fault.. I just was on another planet at the time..lol!

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