1st Credit - a particularly aggressive DCA

[42man]

Great work Conar.....your point on Durant v your own case is relevant in my opinion....also I seem to vaguely remember a case about 8 years ago that you do have copyright over your own voice (whether warned of telecon recording or otherwise), and are entitled to recordings yourself - this may be a bit spurious but somebody may know more of this....

[greendykes]

subscribing

[conradsfate]

hi, i had a letter of these today 1st credit (after requesting a cca) and they said it will take about a month. so im subscribing too.

[Fred Bassett]

T.....One day some of us will be approached by a nice DCA who will listen to our problems take a sympathetic view and agree a sensible repayment schedule

 

One day I'll ride off into the sunset on Shergar and find Lord Lucan.

[greendykes]

Did you see that pig fly:p

[Fred Bassett]

Did you see that pig fly:p

 

I did indeed. It nearly knocked me off my horse.

[conar686]

The saga continues

 

My letter to them

 

 

Data Controller

1st Credit Ltd

The Omnibus Building

Lesbourne Rd

Reigate

RH2 7JP

 

Dated 7 Jul 07

 

Dear Ms xxx-xxxx

Thank you for your letter dated 11 Jul 07 in which you partially answer the points raised in my letter of the 7th.

Your right to the debt

 

You quote s136 of the LoP act as your right to deal with this matter, however you do not state neither does the act, whom I should have received the originating notice from.

I maintain that the originating notice must come from Northern Rock, you state I was sent this on 21 Jun 07, I never received it, until Northern Rock send me this notice I will, for the moment, dispute your right to act in this matter.

I cannot understand your reluctance to send me a copy of ‘Deed of Assignment’ regardless my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) obliges you to send this to me anyway.

Arguably your use of the LoP act does not comply with OFT Debt Collection Guidelines of July 2003 in that you have ‘communicated with [me] in an inaccurate or misleading manner (section 2.1) by ‘presenting information in that it creates a false or misleading impression’. I will be writing to the OFT for guidance in this matter.

Collating, processing or storing my data

 

Whilst I may have given Northern Rock permission to process my data, at no time have I agreed that ‘this right’ could be transferred to a third party without my express permission. You have not acknowledged nor refuted my s10 & 12 notice as you are required to do so.

Please provide me with the legal statute/mechanism under the Data Protection Act that allows you to process, store or collate data without my written permission, if you fail to do this & my CRA report shows that you have done so I will immediately report this action to the Information Commissioners Office as a breach of my Data Protection rights.

Default Notice

 

Before anyone can place any default notice on my credit record they must comply with the strictures of s87/88 of the CCA. Northern Rock has never been able to prove that they executed their default notice properly & I disputed this at the time asking that it be removed from my credit record.

You maintain, you now own the debt, then you should have copies of all pertinent documentation, this would a copy of the Default Notice & a copy of the credit agreement I am merely requesting this information.

Recordings held on file

 

You quote Durant v FSA as your right to withhold transcripts or recordings of my calls to your organisation. In particular your call recording systems do no fall under the Subject Access provisions of the Data Protection Act.

I am of the opinion that this is blatant prevarication for the following reasons;

a. Mr Durant sought to use the Data Protection Act to obtain information on a third party i.e. it was not his data –I seek information on myself, therefore the case is not relevant.

b. I find it hard to believe that in this day & age your systems are not structured in such a way that would not enable you to recover the calls made if it were for your benefit to do so.

Again I request the reference from the Information Commissioners Office that enables your systems not to comply with a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) & to ignore this request for my personal data.

I remind you that all the data/information I have requested should be returned to me no later than the 8 Aug 07.

 

Their response ([edit]- I'll be responding more formally) Just thought my CAG friends could do with a laugh.

 

Rights to the debt

 

1. Either party can send notice of Assignment, the act does not specify which party should send it. DOH! if I believed every 'Johnny come lately' who sent me a letter saying they now owned such & such a debt I'd be dumber than they think I am if I started paying without proof.

 

2. The original DoA contains confidential information between our client & us. I want to know by what mechanism the debt was sold to you & under what terms & conditions. Merely repeating that it was sold without proof of sale is oxymoronic.

 

3. Please refer to the original terms & conditions of the Agreement you had with our client (Thats the 2nd time in correspondence you've referred to NR as your client - do you own the debt or are you NRs agent?) This will specify that in the events the debt is sold the 'rights' (what are these rights?) are passed to the purchaser. We would refer you to S35 (2) of the act (Which act). DOH! Thats what I'm asking you for i.e. A COPY OF THE ORIGINAL SIGNED & PROPERLY EXECUTE CREDIT AGREEMENT WITH T&CS at time of signature.

 

Default Notice

 

4. S 87 of CCA provides for the service of a default notice, S 189 defines serve as meaning to or deliver or send by post to' . A default notice was sent to you by the the original creditor (I'd like you to prove that) We are not obliged to send you a copy at this stage and should proceedings become necessary we will rely on the evidence of the original creditor to show that a default notice was posted to you. I think that it will be my word against your 'clients' as they cannot prove that a default was served. Before you even think of defaulting me you better comply with s87 yourself.

 

5. We have requested a copy of the agreement from our 'client' and have previously advised you that the account has been placed on hold. S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) time running out

 

6. We have already raised the point regarding the call recordings & do not intend answering this again. Probably because you realise that reliance on that particular case history would get you laughed out of court. You'll have to provide it should 'proceedings' go further - cause I'm going to ask the judge too get it.

 

yours Sincerely

 

Ms XXX-XXXX

Complaints Offr

 

Please note fellow CAG'ers - no response regarding Collating, processing or storing my data

 

Off to write my letter now - either comment here if you wish or PM me if you don't want Mr/Ms 1C to know.

 

 

MAC

[remus]

Well conar, can see you have a good handle on this;) looking forward to the next installment.

I dont know what I did to 1st credit, but I got handed back to OC, who have stated (yes I have it in writing:p ) "we asked 1st C to arrange repayment of the monies owing (how nice they were about that to), the debt was NOT sold to them." try telling them that:rolleyes:

I remember my chats with them, when they would never give a direct answer while suggesting I pay even more!

Keep plugging away, and have you complained????? TS OFT etc, they are breaking so many laws.

Good luck:D

[tomterm8]

The saga continues

 

My letter to them

 

 

 

Their response ([edit] - I'll be responding more formally) Just thought my CAG friends could do with a laugh.

 

Rights to the debt

 

1. Either party can send notice of Assignment, the act does not specify which party should send it. DOH! if I believed every 'Johnny come lately' who sent me a letter saying they now owned such & such a debt I'd be dumber than they think I am if I started paying without proof.

They are correct.

 

2. The original DoA contains confidential information between our client & us. I want to know by what mechanism the debt was sold to you & under what terms & conditions. Merely repeating that it was sold without proof of sale is oxymoronic.

they are, on net, probably correct, in as far as within the meaning of the Data Protection Act 1998 they may be entitled to keep this info from you.

 

3. Please refer to the original terms & conditions of the Agreement you had with our client (Thats the 2nd time in correspondence you've referred to NR as your client - do you own the debt or are you NRs agent?) This will specify that in the events the debt is sold the 'rights' (what are these rights?) are passed to the purchaser. We would refer you to S35 (2) of the act (Which act). DOH! Thats what I'm asking you for i.e. A COPY OF THE ORIGINAL SIGNED & PROPERLY EXECUTE CREDIT AGREEMENT WITH T&CS at time of signature.

 

they are utterly wrong; as the assigned owners of the debt, are creditors and must supply you with the executed credit agreement, and as data controllers they are required to hold all relevant data. As the next step, i would send the original creditor a section 10 notice to remove all data.

 

Default Notice

 

4. S 87 of CCA provides for the service of a default notice, S 189 defines serve as meaning to or deliver or send by post to' . A default notice was sent to you by the the original creditor (I'd like you to prove that) We are not obliged to send you a copy at this stage and should proceedings become necessary we will rely on the evidence of the original creditor to show that a default notice was posted to you. I think that it will be my word against your 'clients' as they cannot prove that a default was served. Before you even think of defaulting me you better comply with s87 yourself.

 

5. We have requested a copy of the agreement from our 'client' and have previously advised you that the account has been placed on hold. S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) time running out

If they've been assigned the agreement, then they don't have a client, and should not need to ask for this information from any other source.

 

6. We have already raised the point regarding the call recordings & do not intend answering this again. Probably because you realise that reliance on that particular case history would get you laughed out of court. You'll have to provide it should 'proceedings' go further - cause I'm going to ask the judge too get it.

i would complain to the information commissioner on this

 

yours Sincerely

 

Ms XXX-XXXX

Complaints Offr

 

Please note fellow CAG'ers - no response regarding Collating, processing or storing my data

 

Off to write my letter now - either comment here if you wish or PM me if you don't want Mr/Ms 1C to know.

 

 

MAC

 

..

[conar686]

Tks Remus

 

Complaints l8R & questions to TS, FoS & ICO are next on my list.

 

Anyone like me to throw a few questions in for the above just post them here & I'll add them to my list & post answers when I get 'em.

 

Guidance I'm going to seek

 

FoS (1C are apparently regulated by this body)

 

What proof do purchasers of Debts need to provide to show validity of ownership

 

ICO

 

Can NR sell 'permissions to my data' without my agreement?

 

By what mechanism can 1C refuse to supply recordings of my voice and is Durant v FSA relevant in the case I will describe.

 

TS

 

Default notices - If receipt is not acknowleged or delivery proved how can companies have complied with the act. Just stating repeatedly that its an automated system & it was sent seems thin, hardly equitable & biased towards the vested interest.

 

MAC

[Brassed off]

Wow - excellent thread:D

 

Subscribing:)

 

Bo

[DBG]

subscribing too!

[remus]

"If they've been assigned the agreement, then they don't have a client, and should not need to ask for this information from any other source."

can someone just clarify for me, by assigned, does that mean sold?

[ODC]

"If they've been assigned the agreement, then they don't have a client, and should not need to ask for this information from any other source."

can someone just clarify for me, by assigned, does that mean sold?

They always claim they just have been assigned the rights but not the responsibilities.

[remus]

So in other words, they have not bought the debt, but are merely acting on the OC's instructions (the Rights), to get monies back which ever way they can.

If they owned (had Bought the debt), it is then their (responsiblity) to ensure they have all the relevant paper work, and so legaly they can use the court system?

Is that the simple explanation?

[ODC]

So in other words, they have not bought the debt, but are merely acting on the OC's instructions (the Rights), to get monies back which ever way they can.

If they owned (had Bought the debt), it is then their (responsiblity) to ensure they have all the relevant paper work, and so legaly they can use the court system?

Is that the simple explanation?

Well almost. If they want to go to Court they will need ALL the paperwork. They use the rights and responsibilities this as an excuse. They forget to read S189 of the CCA

Our Soles

[remus]

OK, I am going to push this a bit more, sorry, me simple person, very angry, they legally have sod all?

They do go to court, they get ccj's, which then can lead to charging orders, as they have a ccj. Can they do this if they only have the rights?

I do not believe 1st credit have jack s..t, but the courts are letting all these charging orders go through, because we do not come back with any defence, (because we are scared, and do not believe we have any come back).

1st credit threatened me with everything, the OC has taken the debt back saying the debt was not sold to 1st credit, so how come they took me to hell and back? if legally they couldn't? how was I to know?

I am one of the lucky ones, no charging order, I feel for the ones who have:eek:

[tomterm8]

OK, I am going to push this a bit more, sorry, me simple person, very angry, they legally have sod all?

They do go to court, they get ccj's, which then can lead to charging orders, as they have a ccj. Can they do this if they only have the rights?

No, not if the court claim is defended. See the defence i drafted in http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/cabot/87356-1970-vc-cabot-yes-3.html#post883263

 

 

I do not believe 1st credit have jack s..t, but the courts are letting all these charging orders go through, because we do not come back with any defence, (because we are scared, and do not believe we have any come back).

 

yes. You've got to defend a court claim, or it's granted.

1st credit threatened me with everything, the OC has taken the debt back saying the debt was not sold to 1st credit, so how come they took me to hell and back? if legally they couldn't? how was I to know?

I am one of the lucky ones, no charging order, I feel for the ones who have:eek:

 

Did the DCA go to court? Where's your thread/

..

[remus]

Sorry conar, 1 last hijack:p

Everyone have a read of 1970s thread, its inspiring, and thanks tom it has answered my questions.

I just had the threats, and the CAB felt it was inevitable that if it went to court the ccj would be placed, next step co. So if it had gone that far, I would of just laid down and died as I thought I had no recourse.

What, if anything, can all these poor people who have had the charging order (illegally?) applied do?

[tomterm8]

Sorry conar, 1 last hijack:p

Everyone have a read of 1970s thread, its inspiring, and thanks tom it has answered my questions.

I just had the threats, and the CAB felt it was inevitable that if it went to court the ccj would be placed, next step co. So if it had gone that far, I would of just laid down and died as I thought I had no recourse.

What, if anything, can all these poor people who have had the charging order (illegally?) applied do?

 

They would, intially, have to apply for the CCJ to be set aside. the most effective grounds for that tends to be penalty charges (they are nearly always applied), although there are many grounds that have been used. Once they get a set aside, they need to defend the court claim properly.

[conar686]

Update on correspondence - I've been moved on from Ms xxxx-xxxx in complaints to a Mr XX XXXXXXX of Strategy & Control, is this promotion?

 

His response came 2 days after the following letter to them, they must be waiting with pens/keyboards poised.

 

Dear Ms XXXX-XXXX

 

Thank you for your letter dated 18 Jul 07 in which you partially answer the points raised in my letter of the 14th. I will respond to your points using your numbering schema.

To re-iterate I will not acknowledge any debt to your organisation until such time as you fully comply with my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

Please confirm that you are the sole (alleged) ‘owner of this account’ and not an agent of Northern Rock

Your right to the debt

 

1. Please clarify under what title you claim ownership of this debt purchased from Northern Rock (NR). They have not deemed it necessary to send me a copy of the letter, you allege, was posted to me on the 21 Jun 07; despite, I’m sure, your repeated (& my) request to do so.

I ask you, would you make payments to a third party ‘on just their say so’ without irrefutable proof that the payment was warranted.

2. Respectfully, I want to know by what mechanism the debt was sold to you, under what terms & conditions and require Northern Rock to confirm your status, how you provide me with this information is not my concern neither is it my intention to intrude into your confidential business dealings.

3. That’s what I'm asking you for i.e. A COPY OF THE ORIGINAL SIGNED & PROPERLY EXECUTE CREDIT AGREEMENT WITH T&CS at time of signature.

Please provide me with the definition of s35 (2) of the (what) act and a further definition of the ‘rights’ you refer to.

Default Notice

 

4. NR did not send me a ‘default notice’ as I have not received it, the first time I became aware of ‘the default’ was when I chk’d my credit report. I complained at the time & until recently the matter was under investigation by both the Information Commissioners Office & CRAs.

I’m afraid if it came to ‘further proceedings’ it would be their word against mine’ so you would be unwise to rely on this information.

You may not place a default on this alleged account without issuance of a Default Notice or any explanation whatsoever. This is contrary to sections 87-97 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Recordings held on file

 

5. You realise that reliance on that particular case history would in all likelihood be rejected out of hand. You'll have to provide it should 'proceedings' go further as I'm going to request that a judge so order it.

Collating, processing or storing my data

 

You failed to comment on ‘rights to process my data’ therefore, I deem that you have conceded this point & have complied will my s10/12 notice resulting in the removal of all reference to your organisation from any credit reference report or 3rd party systems.

Further you are not storing, collating or processing my data in any manner that would breach my rights under the Data Protection Act.

I remind you that all the data/information I have requested should be returned to me no later than the 8 Aug 07 after this time you will have committed an offense under both the CCA & DPA.

Please ensure that any ‘copies of pertinent documentation’ you send are ‘properly executed’ as prescribed in the CCA.

 

There response runs something like this

 

1. We purchased the debt and are the legal assignee (s 136 LoP) - Blah Blah

2. copped out of answering

3. A copy of the original agreement has been requested, should I require definitions of the act (s35 (2) - Tom term any ideas? )) they quoted I should contact a solicitor - Thats just rude & unhelpful

4. Northern Rock sent the default so they don't need to. I've asked the ICO for guidance on this, so we'll see

5. I can ask a Judge if that time comes - Its the first thing on my list mate, that & the Deed of Assignment or at least prrof of ownership

6. They state that my data is being stored, collated, processed & shared within the regulations - asked the ICO for guidance on this, however a call to them brought the comment that 'at best this is a Grey area and the very least they can not default me until such time as they comply with the appropriate CCA section' - I'll await their written response before I go firm on that advice.

 

Time is running out Mr 1C

[conar686]

Update

 

Firstly I have been 'edited' :o by the site in respect of some posts on this & other 1st Credit related threads due to complaints received. I have asked the site for an explanation as no detail was given in the PMs I received from CAGBot.

 

As this is my thread I suspect 1st Credit have complained about a words, suggestion or some other content of my posts .

 

If it was indeed first credit - proof positive that they are snooping on us - shame on them 8) .

 

If it was not then could whomever complained send me a PM as to where the fault was so I do not make the same mistake again .

[conar686]

Update 3

 

Received a letter from Mr 1C in response to the following letter

 

Dear Mr XXXXXXX

Thank you for your letter dated 23 Jul 07, I remind you the account is in dispute, this commenced post our telecon of the 28 Jun 07, whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

Furthermore, as you will be aware, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge interest on the account, share my data with 3rd parties nor pass the debt on. I will not acknowledge any debt to your organisation until such time as you fully comply with my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

Your right to the debt

 

1. To comply with your requirements for payment & to enable me to make said to your organisation rather than Northern Rock (NR) I require a statement from NR to the effect that you indeed own the ‘rights’ to the debt’.

To do otherwise would be ‘irresponsible’ and for you to continue to fail in delivery of this proof is in my view ‘unreasonable behavior’, the burden of proof lies with you, you are the one that requires payment.

I ask you, again, would you make payments to a third party ‘on just their say so’ without irrefutable proof that the payment was warranted.

2. You will have to provide the Deed of Assignment’ or proof of ownership ‘should’ you decide to take proceedings further.

3. I find your comment regarding my consulting a ‘solicitor’ boorish & unreasonable, the question asked was legitimate as your correspondence did not indicate which act you were referring to, if this is to be your final word on my request I contend that ‘you made it up’ and are therefore attempting to mislead me in direct contravention to OFT guidance.

Default Notice

 

4. I’ve asked for guidance from the Information Commissioners Office, however their initial view is that you’re un- able to place a default against my name as you have not complied with s 87-89 of the CCA

Recordings held on file

 

5. I only want one – the one where your call centre threatened me with dire consequences should I not pay “£1000 in 7 days”; I do hope you’ve not conveniently lost it.

Collating, processing or storing my data

 

6. While the account is in dispute, you are not entitled to register any information regarding this account with any credit reference agency to do so, you must have my written consent to collate and share it. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement; given your failure to produce such an agreement with you, I do not give this authority.

In closing, I remind you that all the data/information I have requested should be returned to me no later than the 8 Aug 07, please ensure that any ‘copies of pertinent documentation’ you send are ‘properly executed’ as prescribed in the CCA.

 

Yours Sincerely,

 

1. They've asked NR to write to me again confirming that they own the debt. Only what I've been asking for in the last month.

 

2. They are fully aware of their legal obligations. Yet they do not want to share this info despite my SAR - ho hum

 

3. They have not acted in contravention of any OFT guidelines. I'll allow the OFT to respond to my compliant

 

4. They updated NRs default as they now own the debt. I might ask one of the CRAS for the proof they were given that allowed this travesty to occur.

 

5. I can ask the Judge should proceedings go further. OK I will

 

6. They believe my data is being stored in accordance with relevant legislation. I'll allow the Information Commissioners Office to respond to my compliant

 

7. They're still waiting for NR to send them the agreement. looking forward to the fast approaching default date, then I commence my complaint to their local TS, where I'm sure I'll not be alone.

[babybear39]

1st credit openly adimitted to me and Trading Standards that they monitor our threads regularly...Mine's been edited over 20 times, and other posts re: 1st credit :-|

[conar686]

1st credit openly adimitted to me and Trading Standards that they monitor our threads regularly...Mine's been edited over 20 times, and other posts re: 1st credit :-|

 

As I thought BB,

 

Mr 1C you've got my email address should you wish to explain where I was in error, I'd not like to hurt your feelings again