CCA Fee returned - What Now?

[dobiedogs]

Hi all,

 

I have searched around the site without luck so can anybody answer the following question!

 

What happens when you send out a CCA and the fee is returned, but they still demand payment that is allegedly owed for a debt and send letters.

 

Does this mean that they cannot comply or don't want to. What would the next step be?

 

A perplexed Dobiedogs

[NailPost]

You have made a legal request for documentation you are entitled to receive under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for you which you paid the statutory fee of £1.

 

If the debt collector decides to retur the fee thats a matter for him but the clock started ticking the day the request was received. The request also places the alleged debt in dispute and until the documentation is provided no further action (demands, threats, court etc) can be taken.

 

I would keep the letters you have received and the returned fee safely - I assume its a cheque - and wait for the statutory limits to expire then bang in complaints to all and sundry.

 

If the CCA went in after April 6 instigate a complaint under the debt collector's own procedures first. As Consumer Credit Licence hlders hey must have one but most don't bother. If they ignore the request or fob you off go straight to the Financial Services Ombudsman. Just investigating your complaint will cost the collectors £400.

[dobiedogs]

Hi nailpost,

 

Thanks for the reply, I thought that was much the case, but I just wanted to be sure.

 

I know it places the debt in dispute until they comply, however I was a bit confused with them returning the fee (which were P/Os ).

 

I'll wait now until the limits are up and then complain.

 

thank you again

[dobiedogs]

Just an update on this.

 

The original cca (which they returned the fee for) has now sparked a response from Central Debt Recovery Unit. Searching around the site and google shows that these are part of of the in-house team of MCS, and DG Solicitors who are also HSBC.

 

I received a letter this morning from them acknowledging my CCA letter (originally sent to DG Solicitors as they were dealing with it). In their response they say - Note paragraph 2

 

"In respect of your request for a copy of the original, signed agreement for the above account. We can confirm that it has not been possible to locate this agreement. However there is more than sufficient evidence of your entry into an agreement with the bank and the variations to the terms and conditions of that agreement over the years.

 

We would also like to point out that you have been informed that the account is closed. The debt was passed to ourselves who are the banks recovery agent on 14th March 2007. Although there is a debt owed by you there is however no longer a live agreement in place under which the bank can be seen as a creditor and therefore sections 77 and 78 of the consumer credit act 1974 do not apply.

 

We now require your proposal to repay the outstanding balance in full within fourteen days to avoid any further recovery action."

 

Now this account was placed into dispute with the bank in January 2007 by letter of complaint.

 

The cca for this account was received on 20th June signed for so the 12+2 days are passed so they went into default. I just concerned that these seem to be passing this backwards and forwards amongst themselves.

 

 

I have a number of charges relating to this account that are recoverable but am waiting for the bank to comply because my statements are incomplete ie S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)'d

 

And I was never informed that the account was closed I found out after I sent the cca and not in writing either.

 

I'm not trying to get out of paying this but I want a true figure of what I owe less penalty charges and interest that has been added recently.

 

Anyone got any thoughts advice on this, or do I just let the 30 days pass and then they apparently commit an offence.

[42man]

Interesting can anybody comment on this ??

[Vampyra]

The clock is still ticking. They have not produced a CCA. They must do by Law. They cannot say it is not up to them because they are acting on behalf of the HSBC and as a result of agreeing to collect the debt they are liable to produce the CCA as they have to prove the debt they are trying to collect, exists!

 

Do nothing!

 

If they cannot provide a CCA they cannot and no one can legally collect the debt.

[Belaflat]

If they cannot provide a CCA they cannot and no one can legally collect the debt.

 

Yup, they can try and collect and you can politely (or not if you wish) tell them to go forth and multiply since with no agreement thay cannot take you to court.

[dobiedogs]

Hi all,

thank for for your responses, I know that technically 'no cca no can enforce' but I was a bit concerned and confused about para 2

 

"Although there is a debt owed by you there is however no longer a live agreement in place under which the bank can be seen as a creditor and therefore sections 77 and 78 of the consumer credit act 1974 do not apply."

 

Are they saying that

1:because the account is closed there is no reason to comply with the cca because sections 77 & 78 don't apply,

 

2:the bank cannot be seen as a creditor because there is no Live agreement.

[jysmystry]

I had a very similar situation whereby i was threatened with all sorts by Wescots and Natwest over an alleged debt which largely consitsted of bank charges.

 

I found it helpful to think of it like this...

 

If i knocked up a flash looking letter saying you owned me £3000 and i was going to take you to court to get it back would you pay me?

 

No, you wouldn't (by the way if you said yes please PM me your home address hehe) as you would want me to prove the debt actually exists and that that i had a legal right to collect it.

 

They are correct in saying that the fact that they do not have the agreement does not mean the debt does not exist, but it does mean they are unable to collect on it on behalf of the bank as a debt collector. The bank may itself insist on the money being returned but presumably its unreasunable for them to do so until the issue surrounding the bank charges has been resolved as it would place the account into dispute and thus they are obliged to refrain from pursuing you.

 

I'd say you have them over a barrel here. If they havent got the agreement they know that also. I would write to the DCA and advise them that you do not acknowledge any debt to them that they alledge exists and write to the bank pursuing the reclamation of the unlawful charges imposed.

 

That should shut them up.

 

By the way this is just my advice based on my experiences. If any of the others with more experience in this give different advice follow theres. This worked out for me though )

[dobiedogs]

Hi jysmystry

 

Ha ha! nice one but I'm not that daft. I know what you are saying and I suppose some could fall for such tactics.

 

The main problem here seems to be that MCS, DG Solicitors and this Central Debt Recovery unit who are all part of the HSBC in-house gang just pass everything backwards and forwards amongst themselves, but it appears that its dealt with in a certain order MCS then DG then back to CDRU.

 

But now I have it in writing that they do not have the original agreement, so no cca........... I have just found this on the OFT's guidance on unfair business practise section 2.5

 

Physical/psychological harassment

 

c. using more than one debt collection business at the same time

resulting in repetitive and/or frequent contact by different parties.

 

They certainly like doing this because I keep getting demands from all of them for the same disputed account

[Vampyra]

If the bank do not have the correct paperwork to prove the debt exists - i.e. a Credit Agreement, they cannot either collect or ask anyone to collect on their behalf. Thus after 6 years since any acknowledgement or payment, they debt is wiped out due to being Statute Barred.

 

Before the alleged debt can be collected by anyone, it has to be proven with a CA with the correct prescribed terms, else even a Judge cannot enforce it.

[gizmo111]

What sort of debt is it - loan credit card or overdraft?

[dobiedogs]

hi gizmo111,

its a credit card - does that make a difference?

[gizmo111]

They are correct in saying that the debt still exists - however the ycannot enforce it through a court now - so it is up to you what you do now/ Any chance of negotiating a small lump sum payment?

[Vampyra]

Don't want to step on Gizmo's toes but in all honesty if they can't now enforce it - ask them to drop it to zero balance.

 

I am all for people paying what they owe. I was for years prepared to do the same, however my position meant I didn't have a chance in hell of clearing any alleged debts. Since seeing so many people being given wrong and unenforcable CA's, including myself, I am rapidly of the opinion that if the banks and cc companies didn't bother to get people to sign correct legal documents, then more fool them! Plus if they don't comply with the Law on CA's and SAR's then they don't deserve the alleged debtors to play fair either!

[NitrousOxide]

They are correct in saying that the debt still exists - however the ycannot enforce it through a court now - so it is up to you what you do now/ Any chance of negotiating a small lump sum payment?

I have to agree with this.

You are in a very good position to negotiate a reduced settlement. It gets them of your back and the debt is cleared. Again to reiterate that although it cannot be persued through a court the debt does actually still exist.

[lemma1968]

Has MCS tried this trick on anyone else etc saying HSBC no longer the creditor etc? I ask this as MCS have just returned our £1 p.o fee saying there is no charge as we have a right to the loan agreement.

 

Should we expect the same conduct from them?

[NailPost]

Write to the debt collecting monkeys and tell them if they think they have enough evidence to persuade a judge to make an order against you to take that action. If they won't tell them to go away and stop bothering you. If they take you to court your defence will be the non-compliance of the CCA. A judge will throw their case out and they know that.

 

Then write to the bank and tell them you want their illegal charges - and any interest - back.

[dobiedogs]

Hello all,

Just an update in the latest of this silly saga, isn't it strange how I'm no longer scared of these people!

 

Latest with the CCA request again from the Central Debt Recovery Unit (part of the in-house group) very short and to the point "Re Hsbc Bank Plc Ref No:xxxxxxxxxxxxx WE CONFIRM THAT WE WILL BE CALLING ON YOU! On Monday 30th July between 8am and 9pm".

 

Now interestingly enough, the way this short and sweet letter was folded within the envelope,which had a see through window, most of this message and my name and address was seen by the postman and the neighbour (it went to the wrong house) and probably the sorting office as well. Strangely enough MCS also phoned about it as well.

 

Quick note fired off to the first lot ie, Firstly the account is in dispute, and secondly, No compliance with CCA request, thirdly, please stop harassing me until you do comply.

 

To the MCS phone call who was actually very polite to begin with, I put the phone on the floor and carried on hoovering, when I went back they'd gone!

 

Finally, had a response to my SAR request to HSBC who sent me statements for two accounts quick total up of charges so far £478.37p and still counting. BUT, i did ask for all my information held by them and have still not recieved all of it, still waiting on 3 more accounts and this was the response by letter:

 

"Because the account you have requested statements for is a loan account and will not have incurred charges in the same manner as a current account, we have not provided this information to you.". I asked for all information!AND

 

"Reference your request with regard to information. Although many of our systems are automated a 'manual intervention' by HSBC staff may be required in a variety of situations including dealing with correspondance or telephone calls deposits and withdrawls etc made over the counter at our branches and during account administration". I take it thats a no can't have it, then?No further details just copies of statements, but better than nothingNow surely because I requested all information held about me, including manual intervention, the HSBC have a legal obligation to actually provide this. Is there such a thing as partial compliance?

 

Also does anyone know if these In-House DCA's have to have a deed of assignation to collect on behalf of the original creditor evem though they are part and parcel of the HSBC?

 

Regards

[HALIBUNNY]

Very interesting thread. Is it therefore possible now to:

 

1. reclaim your charges and

 

2. After you get your brass, THEN make an offer to settle the alleged debt (50p )

 

3. If you make the offer I presume that would be to the debt collector?

 

Halibunny

[dobiedogs]

I would certainly like to reclaim my charges on my current accounts and then make them an offer on my credit card account, that they haven't got an agreement for. Love the 50p bit, i may well try that one to see what they say.

 

as to number 3, I would presume it would be the debt collector which at the moment is central debt recovery unit, but then again tomorrow it may well be MCS or DG Solicitors or even HSBC themselves, who knows..........

 

dobiedogs

[HALIBUNNY]

Can't you make a claim on your credit card and then make an offer on the outstanding balance when you have got your dosh after they pay up?

[fluffycloud]

Hi all,

 

I have searched around the site without luck so can anybody answer the following question!

 

What happens when you send out a CCA and the fee is returned, but they still demand payment that is allegedly owed for a debt and send letters.

 

Does this mean that they cannot comply or don't want to. What would the next step be?

 

A perplexed Dobiedogs

This is the letter I sent when I didnt get a reply to my original letter/request (this is usual and its normally the second letter that gets the results.. this is a NON COMPLIANCE letter) (this letter was taken from this website but I cannot find the link! so I have copied and pasted it)

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Ref: (Account number goes in here)

I refer to my letter dated {enter date} which was delivered via Recorded Delivery to your offices on {enter delivery date}.

 

You have failed to acknowledge this request by not supplying the requested documents. The documents I requested should be readily available as proof of your legal right to collect this account.

 

In my letter of the {enter date} I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under Section 77(1) and Section 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and a true signed copy of the Deed of Assignment. In addition a full statement of my account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account from the time {debt agency name} purchased this account, along with any other documents mentioned in the credit agreement.

 

You are reminded that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, as defined under Section 189 of the CCA 1974.

 

The Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for this request to be carried out before your company enter into a default situation. If the request is not satisfied after a further 30 calendar days, your company commit an offence. These time limits expired on {enter date} and {enter date} respectively.

 

As you are no doubt aware, Section 78(6) states:

 

If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) -

 

(a) He is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

(b) If the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

Therefore on {enter offence date} this account became unenforceable at law and no further payment will be made by myself to the account, as you have failed to comply with a request for a true signed copy of the said agreement, and other relevant documents mentioned in it, and failed to send a full statement of the account and failed to provide a true copy of the Deed of Assignment, under the relevant sections of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Further, i do not acknowledge any debt to {debt agency name}.

 

I require the following action from {debt agency name} :

 

1. All payments made to date to {debt agency name} for this account should be refunded in full, including interest at the rate of 8% per annum.

 

2. Removal of all defaults entered by {debt agency name}. Note this is to be a complete deletion and not merely an amendment.

 

3. I look forward to compensation under Section 13 of the Data Protection Act 1998 to be offered for the processing of my data in the manner it has been done over the past number of years.

 

4. After a full refund of all payments with interest and compensation are received by myself, you will be required under Section 10 and Section 12 of the Data Protection Act 1998 to cease and desist all manual and automatic processing of my data within your company and any other company within your group.

 

If you do not respond positively to my request, court action may be taken under Section 14 of the Data Protection Act 1998 to force {debt agency name} or any other company within the group to comply with the refund of all monies paid, removal of all defaults maintained and compensation for damage and distress as a result of unlawful data processing. I may also pass the matter to the relevant enforcement authorities including, but not limited to, the OFT, the Information Commissioners Office, Trading Standards, the CSA, the FOS and my local MP.

 

I look forward to your reply within 14 days to resolve the matter amicably.

 

Yours faithfully

 

HOPE THIS HELPS.... The first CCA request letter is on my office pc which I cant get to till next week so hope this helps for now unless someone else comes along and offers more advice!!

 

p.s if I have been even a little bit helpful can you 'click' my scales to add to my reputation!!