SLC Cannot Supply The Original Agreement

[Fullyskinted]

Hi

 

Can you post up the exact sentence/paragraph from the letter from the CC company in which they say they cannot supply you with a copy of the agreement?

 

Regards, Pam

 

 

Already have

 

OK, today I have recieved a letter from RBS with the folowing:

 

Please find enclosed a copy of your credit agreement [which is dated 0107-02], regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, as requested. I regret that we have been unable to locate a copy of your original signed application form from our archived records.

 

What do I do now?

 

Give them the remainder of the 30 days? I also asked for the staements for 6 years at the same time. These will follow 'under seperate cover' apparently...

 

Thoughts please.

[Movingon]

OK, today I have recieved a letter from RBS with the folowing:

 

Please find enclosed a copy of your credit agreement [which is dated 0107-02], regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, as requested. I regret that we have been unable to locate a copy of your original signed application form from our archived records.

 

What do I do now?

 

Give them the remainder of the 30 days? I also asked for the staements for 6 years at the same time. These will follow 'under seperate cover' apparently...

 

Thoughts please.

 

What have they actually sent you? Is the document they sent a full Credit Agreement Regulated by.... etc, signed by you and by a representative of the company? If so, thay have fulfilled part of their obligation; they should send "a statement of account" also. If it's NOT a "properly executed" agreement (i.e. signed properly by both parties) then they have met NO PART of their obligation. If that situation continues past the end of the 30 days, hit them with the enforcement authorities.

 

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[Fullyskinted]

They have sent me NOTHING!!!

[InKogneeToh]

They have sent me NOTHING!!!

 

Hi

 

So what was dated [which is dated 0107-02] - as per your last post??

 

Regards, Pam

[Fullyskinted]

I will have to dig it all out.

Basically a covering letter and a copy of my agreement, but not an original from 199X, it was printed that date as above. It was not signed by anyone. The even told me (well, twice now) that they could not locate the original.

 

I had the original sent to me by another CC Co from 1992! COuldnt believe it!

 

I will take a look thro the ever growing pile of paperwork and scan it if you want. Bit busy atm tho!

[zubo]

I will have to dig it all out.

Basically a covering letter and a copy of my agreement, but not an original from 199X, it was printed that date as above. It was not signed by anyone. The even told me (well, twice now) that they could not locate the original.

 

I had the original sent to me by another CC Co from 1992! COuldnt believe it!

 

I will take a look thro the ever growing pile of paperwork and scan it if you want. Bit busy atm tho!

 

FS

 

In which case they have nothing, zero, zilch. You need to send them a recorded letter thanking them for sending a copy of what an agreement looks like, but in the absence of your signature they have defaulted on the agreement - because they have failed to supply your true copy and that whilst in default they are not able to enforce the agreement, make any charges, default you, share data nor sell the debt. You should also insist that they remove any defaults they may have raised and confirm that they will not pursue the debt and will reduce it to a zero balance.

 

Z

[rhsymonds]

Hi Everyone, Im currently waiting for a court date re bank charges with HSBC, and i stumbled across this potential minefield !

 

If i write to HSBC asking for the agreement for my Managed Loan

( Yes, Managed Loan, they got me too:mad: )

do i need to quote the entire CCA or can i just ask for a copy and mention the paragraph it relates to ?

 

I just assume they would look a lot harder if they realise what will happen if they dont find it, and have the time constraints in front of them.

 

Id much rather lie low until the 30 days is up, then BAM, Tell them i owe them nothing !!!

 

Such a helpful forum, i cant thank everyone enough for the 1000's of posts ive already read.

[JonCris]

rhys If they do not comply within 12 days they are in default. If after a further 30 days (42 in total) they still do not comply they are then in criminal default which upon summary conviction carries a standard scale fine of £2.500 &/or imprisoment of 6 (correction 3) months

[zubo]

Hi Everyone, Im currently waiting for a court date re bank charges with HSBC, and i stumbled across this potential minefield !

 

If i write to HSBC asking for the agreement for my Managed Loan

( Yes, Managed Loan, they got me too:mad: )

do i need to quote the entire CCA or can i just ask for a copy and mention the paragraph it relates to ?

 

I just assume they would look a lot harder if they realise what will happen if they dont find it, and have the time constraints in front of them.

 

Id much rather lie low until the 30 days is up, then BAM, Tell them i owe them nothing !!!

 

Such a helpful forum, i cant thank everyone enough for the 1000's of posts ive already read.

 

rhys,

 

First, the CCA is a very complex piece of legislation. By that I mean that there is within the legislation a requirement which a debtor may invoke - he may request a true copy of the executed agreement. The standard letter I believe is letter N in the templates library.

 

You must understand a few things about this legislation. The CCA is very specific about what constitutes an agreement. Every financial transaction from £50 to £25,000 is covered by the Act except for property agreements. This thread discusses what happens if the creditor cannot produce a true copy of the agreement. In this case - where there is NO agreement then you can usually push for the debt to be reduced to zero - I have done this on 3 old agreements worth £6k.

 

But there are more agreements which we have discussed which have a dubious discrepancy in them. Now in these cases, many people are writing back saying that they are unexecuted agreements. What this means is that for some of these agreements the creditor could ask a court for an order to enforce them, for others the discrepancies are simply too great.

 

For these latter, we are currently at a standoff - neither party wishing to go to court in case they lose. There is very little case law. So it is a big risk and gamble. btw nobody actually denies their debt (usually) simply that the creditor cannot enforce (collect) it.

 

So please do not think it is simply a request and wait for 30 days... it is much much more than that.

 

x

[InKogneeToh]

 

If i write to HSBC asking for the agreement for my Managed Loan

( Yes, Managed Loan, they got me too:mad: )

do i need to quote the entire CCA or can i just ask for a copy and mention the paragraph it relates to ?

 

 

Hi

 

The letter you need to send is letter 'N' in the following link:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/20758-creditors-dcas-letter-templates.html

 

Regards, Pam

[tamadus]

In theory the process is very simple, but we are talking about money the financial institutions regard as their own, so its never going to be simple. I have been swapping letters with several companies now for over 6 months and getting nowhere. The delay of course is down to them taking 2 months to reply.

 

I'm now getting to the point where I am almost ready to issue proceedings against them, which will probably happen once another complex case is settled in June ( or earlier if they pay attention to a Judge

[rhsymonds]

Thanks for the replies Pam, Joncris and Zubo, I have already downloaded and printed letter N, and im planning to send it on monday (special delivery of course) to HSBC and Fredrickson (courtesy of Style), I would send it to Capital one as well if i knew my account number (debt management signed over to sterling green last year) !!!

 

tamadus, correct me if im wrong, but isnt 2 months longer than is legally allowed ? take them to court !!!! (im currently taking HSBC to court and it is scary so i understand if you are afraid, it does get very 'Real' very fast)

 

Thanks again, all of you.

[tamadus]

Thanks for the replies Pam, Joncris and Zubo, I have already downloaded and printed letter N, and im planning to send it on monday (special delivery of course) to HSBC and Fredrickson (courtesy of Style), I would send it to Capital one as well if i knew my account number (debt management signed over to sterling green last year) !!!

 

tamadus, correct me if im wrong, but isnt 2 months longer than is legally allowed ? take them to court !!!! (im currently taking HSBC to court and it is scary so i understand if you are afraid, it does get very 'Real' very fast)

 

Thanks again, all of you.

 

One thing I am not afraid of is taking them to court, as many on here will testify. On the contrary I think many will testify that I am more than prepared to break open new ground In fact all 3 of those you mention will I am sure tell you I dont take prisoners lightly.

 

I am simply playing around with both these companies as I currently have a case in court which is NOT as simple as bank/credit card charges and that is taking up a lot of my time at the moment. breaking new ground can be very time consuming.

 

There is no legal limit as to how long they take to reply, just a guideline that any complaint can be referred to the FOS after 8 weeks. Which is probably what I will do once the April guidelines come into effect. When the FOS have finished their investigation ( which will cost both companies £450) I will have a settlement on the other case and I can then devote enough time to persue both of these in court.

 

It's not a matter of being afraid of the process, but more a matter of picking your own time and place for the fight. I work roughly 15 hours a day and simply dont have the time to devote to more than one complax issue at a time. To even attempt to do so would be the equivalent of financial suicide.

 

When I issue in court it's at my time and choosing, not theirs. I also make sure I have all the facts and evidence I need in advance, which is why when I do issue I know I will win the case if they do go to court.

 

I do hope Abbey are reading this thread

 

Oh and HSBC are unlikely to actually appear in court over a simple charges claim. They WILL attend though if you turn around and tell them you don't owe them anything. Never forget that even if they don't have a properly executed agreement the debt can still be proved and still exists. None of the CCA threads are about avoiding a debt, they are more towards making the companies operate within the laws of this country.

[rhsymonds]

One thing I am not afraid of is taking them to court, as many on here will testify.

 

Im sorry tamadus, i didnt mean to sound condescending, you obviously know what you are talking about in great detail.

 

I dont intend to take HSBC to court stating i owe them nothing, i have about 4 years of poverty which prove otherwise !!

 

And as for 15 hours a day !!! What the hell do you do if you dont mind me asking ?? I used to work 12 and that nearly killed me !!!

 

Thanks for all your help, i really appreciate the time you take to reply.

[tamadus]

np rhsymonds, I just wanted to put the record straight

 

wherever your following the CCA sec 77/78 path you have ot make sure every T is crossed and i is dotted or they will rip your case to shreds. It's still very early ground in this line of attack and I would hate to see anyone stumble as court can be a costly affair. Sometimes we need to make that point a lot stronger than we like to.

 

I am a director of 2 companies (just sold the main business of one of them) and at the moment I am establishing a national service department for the buyers.

 

Then of course I spend most evenings researching and compiling my cases for court and helping others on CAG, MY normal day is about 15 hours plus CAG

 

Yes is very tiring but I cant think of anything better to do with the time than make these companies squirm

 

If you need any help at all just PM me or post on the main CCA thread, you cant miss it as its about 260 pages long now and either myself or one of the regulars will pop over

[un1boy]

One thing I am not afraid of is taking them to court, as many on here will testify. On the contrary I think many will testify that I am more than prepared to break open new ground In fact all 3 of those you mention will I am sure tell you I dont take prisoners lightly.

 

I am simply playing around with both these companies as I currently have a case in court which is NOT as simple as bank/credit card charges and that is taking up a lot of my time at the moment. breaking new ground can be very time consuming.

 

There is no legal limit as to how long they take to reply, just a guideline that any complaint can be referred to the FOS after 8 weeks. Which is probably what I will do once the April guidelines come into effect. When the FOS have finished their investigation ( which will cost both companies £450) I will have a settlement on the other case and I can then devote enough time to persue both of these in court.

 

It's not a matter of being afraid of the process, but more a matter of picking your own time and place for the fight. I work roughly 15 hours a day and simply dont have the time to devote to more than one complax issue at a time. To even attempt to do so would be the equivalent of financial suicide.

 

When I issue in court it's at my time and choosing, not theirs. I also make sure I have all the facts and evidence I need in advance, which is why when I do issue I know I will win the case if they do go to court.

 

I do hope Abbey are reading this thread

 

Oh and HSBC are unlikely to actually appear in court over a simple charges claim. They WILL attend though if you turn around and tell them you don't owe them anything. Never forget that even if they don't have a properly executed agreement the debt can still be proved and still exists. None of the CCA threads are about avoiding a debt, they are more towards making the companies operate within the laws of this country.

 

Tam, the 8 week "rule" is actually specified in the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 which gives the FSA its powers!

[Smoothy]

Im sorry tamadus, i didnt mean to sound condescending, you obviously know what you are talking about in great detail.

 

I dont intend to take HSBC to court stating i owe them nothing, i have about 4 years of poverty which prove otherwise !!

 

And as for 15 hours a day !!! What the hell do you do if you dont mind me asking ?? I used to work 12 and that nearly killed me !!!

 

Thanks for all your help, i really appreciate the time you take to reply.

 

Errrrrrrrrr

for your info rhysymonds.....

If you look to the left of this post, you will see

• My name
  
• what type of account customer I am
  
• how many posts Ive made and 3 green blobs.

If you see more than say 10 posts, Its because I have contributed to a number of threads.

If you mouse over the green blobs, itll tell you how informative I am.

 

Now for instance, if we take dear old Tam's info (sorry to burst your bubble Tam but you are older than me!!)

We can see that HE is a site helper > which means hes been around a bit!

He has in excess of 1700 posts which means he talks a lot!

He also has 6 green blobs. That makes what he says very acurate!!

So, to recap, before you offer advice, just check who your giving it too.....

Its like teaching your granny to suck eggs!!!

Just a word of advice!!

And btw

Welcome to the forum!

Smoothy

[rhsymonds]

Errrrrrrrrr

for your info rhysymonds.....

 

Thanks smoothy, I realised how omnipotent Tamadus was after i posted, but i dont think you talking down to me is achieving anything. Do you ?

 

Congratulations on your 3 green blobs, but it was tamadus giving me help, and youve just jumped in to berate me for being new to the forum.

 

Must help you sleep at night.

 

cheers, Ross

[Peterbard]

Hi Rhys and welcome to the forum.

 

Please don't be put of by the amount of information on here most if it was gained by people reading the act and then saying ,"yes but what if" a lot of times it turns out to be wrong, but also when it's correct the effects can be spectacular.

A lot of us have tried to use the act in ways to correct the ballance that has been in the creditors favour for so long, and sometimes some of us come unstuck,certainly me and even Tam as he would be the first to admit but the great thing is that you are amongst friends here, and as long as you show mutual respct we can pool our collective skills and insights. I have found that the whole far exceeds the sum of the parts.

Sorry to appear like i am preaching but i know from experiance how easy it is to get into a personal and unproductive exchange on here. So please keep posting and if you have an idea don't be afraid to post it i garantee it will be taken seriosly and you never know it might be something that has been missed.

 

Kind

Regards

 

Peter

[InKogneeToh]

Sorry to appear like i am preaching but i know from experiance how easy it is to get into a personal and unproductive exchange on here.

 

Aaaaagh Peter! we all luvs ya really!!! xxxxxxx

[Peterbard]

Aaaaagh Peter! we all luvs ya really!!! xxxxxxx

 

Steady Pam

[InKogneeToh]

Steady Pam

 

Sorry, it must be spring fever!!

[rhsymonds]

Sorry to appear like i am preaching but i know from experience how easy it is to get into a personal and unproductive exchange on here.

 

Peter, Thanks for your constructive reply. I totally agree, combined CAG is an extremely powerful tool against the might of the banks legal team. It just annoys me that on every forum, there are people who forget that they too were 'newbies' once, and take pride in wasting posts to state the obvious. Im sure smoothy has helped a lot of people, but my first impression is that he would rather make himself out to be a high flyer, than provide help and advice and be deemed so by his peers.

 

Anyway, back to the matter at hand. Im sending my letter (template N, thanks Barracad) tomorrow, and if they cant find my agreement i will be asking them to write of the debt, otherwise i will be complaining to the FOS. Im not trying to worm my way out of my debt, im just looking for a way to get them back for stitching me up in the first place. If they find the agreement, no big deal, its my debt and ill live with it. If it wasnt for this forum, i would never have known about this course of action anyway !!!

 

I am more than happy to come unstuck if it helps the greater good (Hot fuzz anyone ?) And its nice to know that i have informed people such as yourself to help me along the way.

 

Finally, do i have to contact a Mod to get a post moved ? who would you reccommend ?

 

Thanks,

Ross

[zubo]

Peter, Thanks for your constructive reply. I totally agree, combined CAG is an extremely powerful tool against the might of the banks legal team. It just annoys me that on every forum, there are people who forget that they too were 'newbies' once, and take pride in wasting posts to state the obvious. Im sure smoothy has helped a lot of people, but my first impression is that he would rather make himself out to be a high flyer, than provide help and advice and be deemed so by his peers.

 

Anyway, back to the matter at hand. Im sending my letter (template N, thanks Barracad) tomorrow, and if they cant find my agreement i will be asking them to write of the debt, otherwise i will be complaining to the FOS. Im not trying to worm my way out of my debt, im just looking for a way to get them back for stitching me up in the first place. If they find the agreement, no big deal, its my debt and ill live with it. If it wasnt for this forum, i would never have known about this course of action anyway !!!

 

I am more than happy to come unstuck if it helps the greater good (Hot fuzz anyone ?) And its nice to know that i have informed people such as yourself to help me along the way.

 

Finally, do i have to contact a Mod to get a post moved ? who would you reccommend ?

 

Thanks,

Ross

 

Ross,

 

The anonymous nature of this site leads to immediate handbags at dawn incidents like this. Smoothy has come across quite harsh, but he is really not at all like that. And as Peter said he knows from personal experience how easy it is to get into these really trivial exchanges. I too have opened my editor and put my keyboard in it without engaging brain: let me repeat - imho nobody on this site is trying to do anything but be helpful and explore some extremely complex issues. So lets all have a nice hug and go back to helping each other.

 

Good luck with your approach, you may wish to pm Karnevil she could arrange the post to be moved.

 

You might also find my own strategy useful, it is a devloping one, but pull anything out you might find useful

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/57839-newman-debt-collection-agents-3.html#post582305

 

from #49

 

Z

[tamadus]

Errrrrrrrrr

for your info rhysymonds.....

If you look to the left of this post, you will see

• My name
  
• what type of account customer I am
  
• how many posts Ive made and 3 green blobs.

If you see more than say 10 posts, Its because I have contributed to a number of threads.

If you mouse over the green blobs, itll tell you how informative I am.

 

Now for instance, if we take dear old Tam's info (sorry to burst your bubble Tam but you are older than me!!)

We can see that HE is a site helper > which means hes been around a bit!

He has in excess of 1700 posts which means he talks a lot!

He also has 6 green blobs. That makes what he says very acurate!!

So, to recap, before you offer advice, just check who your giving it too.....

Its like teaching your granny to suck eggs!!!

Just a word of advice!!

And btw

Welcome to the forum!

Smoothy

Hmmmm you could be right as Methuselah's granddad was a drinking partner of mine.

Site helper just means that somebody was crazy enough to think I look good in pink

Lets get this right shall we, it means you lot can't shut me up

Nahh it just means you lot think it's accurate

Seriously though we have to remember reclaiming bank and credit card charges is relatively simple. The banks and CC companies don't ahve a leg to stand on and all their posturing and defending is only to put off the day they have to write that cheque. Plus they longer they make us wait the more likely we will forget about it, or decide it's too much trouble.

 

As soon as we step onto new ground then we have to be certain that we have the law on our side, otherwise they will defend and win, leaving us with a possible costs bill which is out of proportion to the claim. This is something that has already shown it's head in claims for ERC's. Hopefully though that is something that I can and will change in the next couple of months

 

I admit that I can and do make mistakes and I'm not afraid to admit it. If I everything about the law then I would be a barrister I don't think it's anything to do with teaching granny (or grandpa) to suck eggs. CAG is more about supporting each other through discussion, and where needed giving advice based on experience and what knowledge we have.

 

When I made my first claim way back in June 2006 I knew nothing at all about claiming charges, I like to think that several claims later I have learnt a lot and understood a little bit. If I can stop just 1 person rushing headlong into a fight they are destined to lose because they didnt wait to gather all the evidence they needed and turn that fight into something they can win then I have achieved my aims, and mhopefully nobody will blame me for taking a little bit of the credit for my own satisfaction.