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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

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We need your help folks! Re old T&Cs


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Tanz

Thanks for your response.

 

regards

 

PM

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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Hello there, a newbe here. don't know if you've got this already but in our letter from the woolwich/barclays they said we could get terms and conditions on the following site haven't tried it tho; www.woolwich.co.uk/barclays.co.uk

hope it helps and will have a look in paperwork for any others ( I'm a bit of a horder apparently?!)

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Hey crusher,

 

Could we have an update as to what actual T&C's have been provided?

 

Also is there gonna be a section where they can be downloaded if needed by claimants.

 

This would be really useful for members.

 

Share and share alike and all that.

 

P.S still after T&C's for Barclays current account 1993 and HSBC current account 2001.

 

Tanz

 

there will be some sort of download area in the library with the t&cs available within a few weeks, for users to take the t&cs they need, this work is underway.

I don't have a list of what we have, I will see if I can get one, so we can concentrate on the ones we have not got.

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Hello there, a newbe here. don't know if you've got this already but in our letter from the woolwich/barclays they said we could get terms and conditions on the following site haven't tried it tho; www.woolwich.co.uk/barclays.co.uk

hope it helps and will have a look in paperwork for any others ( I'm a bit of a horder apparently?!)

 

 

Hi Druids,

 

If you have any could you let me know, I am after some from 1993, Barclays Current Account.

 

The link you provided will just be new ones, the problem is that the banks are changing the T&C's to cloak or veil charges stating they are for a service which means they are allowed to make a profit, ratherr than a penalty which should only cover their losses.

 

Tanz

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Okay,

I'm thinking that I may apply to revise my POC's.

This is in light of the fact that the Bank, despite several requests have still as yet failed to produce a copy of the original contract.

However, I do actually have several signed agreements that relate to various overdraft facilities agreed on several occasions throughout the period (and I do believe they fit all the criteria required to be considered as contracts, ie; an exchange of agreements in consideration for others by the other party, signed dated and exchanged).

I am thinking that I may ask that the court allows me to amend my POC's to incorporate an amendment to paragraph 2 (which related to my contract in just a singular sense) to also encompass and be widened to include these subsequent contracts.

These agreements do very explicitly state a set overdraft limit that MUST (their words) not be exceeded.

Thus by exceeding or attempting to exceed these limits set, I have clearly broken the terms of the contract.

They do go on to say that charges as published etc are applicable to the account, HOWEVER...

They also state that this limit is INCLUDING any charges, interests and costs.

 

Firstly, any views on this?

 

Secondly, how do I go about filing such an amendment?

 

Thirdly, any suggestions for the wording?

 

Regards

 

PM

 

My tuppence worth: I wouldn't have thought you need amend your claim as I reckon these are porbably ancillary or subsidiary or subordinate contracts (don't know the terminology) - i.e. fall under the umbrella of the original contract. In fact if you have such a document for each time your OD limit changed, then these would presumably(!) override any conflicting standard terms, and since everything hinges on the terms of the overdraft I would have thought these docs should be enough to rely on.

 

If you do apply to amend, you will have more delay and as I understand it its likely they will be offered the chance to submit a new defence = even more delay.

 

NB: I am no expert so all this is just a fairly confident guess.

 

If you want to get the T&Cs, and you haven't (yet) been allocated to the small claims track (you can't do it in the SC track), then make a Part 18 request asking for all the T&Cs that have ever applied to your account. HSBC provided me with quite a bit of info on that basis - though they only gave me excerpts of T&Cs, so you might want to make it clear that you want the whole lot inc. front and back covers.

 

If you might want to get any further info by this method you should include it from the start as you're not supposed to issue more than one. And don't include too much or be long-winded or include anything that isn't clearly relevant as you're not supposed to do so and they will jump on a achance to use this as an excuse to ignore it.

 

Depending on what you are claiming, and how fast they seem to be moving, you might be able to speed the process up by applying for summary judgement on the basis that their defence cannot succeed on the evidence, esp. once you have the T&Cs. If your claim is straightforward, you could even combine this with an application to strike out the defence on grounds of abuse of process. As you know there's some stuff on my thread that may be relevant - but don't forget that fine words butter no parsnips, I haven't won yet, and the details and circumstances of my claim mean I may not be submitting my application after all - obviously, use your own judgement. Any application costs £35I think (might be £30) - and may also have some effect on whether the judge thinks you are doing your best not to bother him/her...

 

Again, I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about so these are just ideas for your further research and not advice!

 

Lastly, I may be being thick but I don't get what you take "They also state that this limit is INCLUDING any charges, interests and costs" to signify. And do they actually say 'costs?' What do they mean?

 

cheers,

 

stax

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Hi, I read this thread over the weekend. Well done everyone for your solid advice. It would be great when the T&Cs are available on the site.

 

My claim is with the Halifax. Been with them since 1993, however they sent me statements from 1999 to date. At first I decided to make a 6year claim, but soon decided with my LBA letter to claim from 1999. LBA expired 12.5.2007.

 

I ought to have commenced legal action, but did not want to rush into it, in view of the recent, very publicised set back case.

 

It now seems that the P.O.C in the template library would not be sufficient on it's own, especially with needed T&Cs.

 

Bankfodder said amendments would be made to the templates for claims beyond 6years. This is yet to be done. I assume further amendments would be necessary following the adverse Lloyds judgement.

 

Since 12.5.2007, Halifax has written (23.5.2007) to 'decline my complaint' (their terminology)

I'm very confused on how to draft my P.O.C following these development, while very conscious of the time. My claim is, dare I say, straight forward, with just the statutory 8%. Could someone PLEASE HELP, as I do not want to jeopardise my claim at this stage.

 

Best Regards

Rainman

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Stax

 

Thank you so much for your views.

Very helpful, and pretty much what I was thinking may be the case.

 

I agree and think it may be best to await to see what is happening regards allocation, then try the CPR approach, with a well worded complete but concise request.

 

Regards your question:

 

"Lastly, I may be being thick but I don't get what you take "They also state that this limit is INCLUDING any charges, interests and costs" to signify. And do they actually say 'costs?' What do they mean?"

 

This is my meaning:

 

Regards "Unauthorised borrowing fees". An often used argument regards these posited by the Banks is that these are actually for the "service" of reviewing a lending limit, rather than a penalty for exceeding a limit.

(However, if this really is the case then the overdraft extension would then clearly no longer be "unauthorised", whilst the higher lending rates it triggers covers any "extra lending or risk" argument).

So to have incurred these "Unauthorised borrowing fees" required being over my overdraft limit, thus to have broken the terms of the agreement, and this also includes my not accounting for any fees and charges, as obliged to do so by the terms "including any charges, costs and interest". Thus a breach.

There have also often been occasions when the charges have continued to accrue simply due to the previous months charges, costs interest etc, so again, by my failing to account for these. Thus, even though my actions that month may have not included direct attempts at a breach, it is actually their own actions that have been complicit in my breach of contract.

 

Incidentally, had the fees been presented as an "overdraft review fee" or such like (which I believe some banks are now doing) then it would be harder to argue.

However the description "unauthorised borrowing fee" clearly by it's own terminology implies that it is bourne from some unauthorised act, thus a breach, thus a penalty.

 

Hope that makes sense.

 

Incidentally, to prevent hijacking this thread any further, anybody wishing to reply to this please do so on my own threads.

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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I am going through the court process(awaiting a hearing date), but as I opened my account probably about 20yrs ago(don't know exactly), do I need to somehow get hold of the T&C from the 1980's or do I just need to find one for the start of my claim 2001.

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DS,

 

Did you take out the account with Halifax? In the late 80's early 90's they began taking over smaller building society's and aquiring accounts.

 

Tide

Hi Tide

Yes we took opened the account with the Halifax in the early 90's.

Does this help in any way!!

Thanks

DS

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Its interesting to note that on RBS statements, any charge has the mnemonic CHG next to it, which, looking at the key means CHARGE.

 

Maybe this is a way of proving that these are in fact charges.

 

What do the actual statements say they are.

 

Similarly all my LloydsTSB statements use the abbreviation 'CHG' in that column, but then call them 'Fees' in the details column.

Not sure how much weight that would have, but worth mentioning.

 

Soap

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Re which T&Cs: You need all the T&Cs that were in effect during the time you are claiming for. (BTW - the UTCCRs won't apply to any individual terms which took effect before mid-1995, and haven't been changed since.)

 

Re 'charge' v 'fee': this choice of words doesn't have any legal significance. The only relevant factors are (roughly): was the charge/fee taken in response to a breach of contract by you, and was its value more than a reasonable estimate of the cost to the bank of that breach?

 

Those are the conclusions I have come to, anyway.

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I'm including the T&C's and fees and charges (A&L) for the beginning of my claim and the same that apply to the end (claiming for six years). There's no way I could include them all as, some years, they seem to have updated them 3 or 4 times and that would be one heck of a lot of paper! If my bundle gets any bigger, no-one will be able to pick it up:rolleyes:

A-Z CAG links to all documents you'll need for

your claim

(Thanks to Michael Brown for all his efforts)

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/consumer-forums-website-questions/53182-cant-find-what-youre.html

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I'm including the T&C's and fees and charges (A&L) for the beginning of my claim and the same that apply to the end (claiming for six years). There's no way I could include them all as, some years, they seem to have updated them 3 or 4 times and that would be one heck of a lot of paper! If my bundle gets any bigger, no-one will be able to pick it up:rolleyes:

 

Who do you bank with? I'm still trying to track down T&Cs for Lloyds between 2001 and 2003.

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