First victory to Lloyds

[oneofakind]

Matt, you're new to this, I guess.

 

Your question goes right to our basic argument. Just because a bank says it can charge a fee, does NOT mean they can charge what they want. we all recognise that a bank has the right to cover any cost incurred by a customer taking his account 'out of order'. What we are disputing is the AMOUNT they charge. Charges must be fair and reasonable, and they should not be making profit from such charges. Does a bounced cheque cost Lloyds 35 quid? Of course not! But they will not stand up in court because that would mean they have to reveal exactly HOW much it costs them, and their whole house of cards would probably fall.

 

Even if, like Lloyds, the bank claims that 'allowing the customer to exceed their overdraft' or whatever is a SERVICE, the fee charged for this service should still be reasonable.

 

to sum up:

 

PENALTY CHARGES ARE UNLAWFUL!

DISGUISING PENALTY CHARGES AS SOMETHING ELSE IS UNLAWFUL!

BANK TERMS AND CONDITIONS DO NOT PUT THEM ABOVE THE LAW!

 

We, the consumers, have had enough!

[tina9776]

Does anyone know if it is legal for Lloyds to charge "arrangement fees" on a business account. My husband is self employed and sometimes invoices are paid late. As a result he calls his manager, explains the situation, and his manager agrees to increase his overdraft facility for a few days. He is then charged an "arrangement fee" of up to £100 (this has happened on a few occasions) - I find this incredible since my husband is ringing them to ask for their help. Can I include these charges along with the excess overdraft/returned item charges? Would be very grateful for any help on this.

Thanks.

[ataction]

You cannot include these charges. Arrangement fees are agreed service fee. It is sometimes possible to negotiate the amount, I have a business account and I have agreed to increase my insurance cover, if they waive the arrangement fee. (Subsequently cancel the insurance during the cooling off period), it is a cynical ploy, but hey these are banks we are dealing with.

[tina9776]

I find it slightly bizarre that on our joint account we get charged £30 for going over our overdraft facility but my husband's business account is £12.50. Does anyone know why this is and can I still claim these as unfair and unlawful?

With regard to the Lloyds win, everyone keeps referring to POC - I may be being thick but what is this and also what is a "bundle". We're at the moneyclaimonline stage with our joint account, claiming over £3,000 - they have not acknowledged yet but have until the 28th May.

[Shoestring]

I find it slightly bizarre that on our joint account we get charged £30 for going over our overdraft facility but my husband's business account is £12.50. Does anyone know why this is and can I still claim these as unfair and unlawful?

 

Might it be that business is "favoured" at the expense of the individual?

 

Shoestring

[ataction]

There is no logic to the amounts they charge. POC (particulars of claim) these are the specific details you filled in on your legal claim form, I hope!

[photoman]

Might it be that business is "favoured" at the expense of the individual?

 

Shoestring

 

Business accounts are not favoured at the expense of the individual.

In fact rather the opposite.

Firstly, Business accounts normally carry monthly service charges which are payable regardless of the balance of account, negative or positive.

Secondly Business' are also charged for each and every transaction on top, all chq's, DD's, SO's etc.

Business' also pay much higher rates on overdrafts at both authorised and unauthorised levels.

[Shoestring]

Business accounts are not favoured at the expense of the individual.

In fact rather the opposite.

Firstly, Business accounts normally carry monthly service charges which are payable regardless of the balance of account, negative or positive.

Secondly Business' are also charged for each and every transaction on top, all chq's, DD's, SO's etc.

Business' also pay much higher rates on overdrafts at both authorised and unauthorised levels.

 

I stand corrected.

 

Out of interest, what size business are you referring to re the above? Small business, Plc, transnational? Are they all treated the same?

 

Shoestring

[Destinyofsouls]

Would this be of any use on future POC's ?

 

Further or in the alternative, if the defendants state that there was no breach of contract and that the charges are for a service, then it is the Claimants belief that the defendants have attempted to restructure accounts in order to present events of default spuriously as additional services.

 

However The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, is concerned with the intention and effects of terms, not just their mechanism. For example, a charge for 'agreeing to' or 'allowing' a customer to exceed his credit limit is no different from a charge for the customer's 'default' in exceeding his credit limit

[Muffintop]

You may be able to clear up my query stopping me putting my lba in on my bus account with lloyds. Can the service charge be claimed back? is it part of the claim? would breath a sigh of relief to know if yes or know??? skeggsy n nailard v lloyds.

[Muffintop]

destiny of souls. Did you use this in your POC with Lloyds?

[Muffintop]

Photoman, you will prob be able to answer my queries above, didnt want to pm you, Can in your knowledge a business claim back the service charge, I was a little confused as to why the charge for going over overdraft was only 10.00 on the business account but 30 on the personal, seems others are realising this also.

[photoman]

Photoman, you will prob be able to answer my queries above, didnt want to pm you, Can in your knowledge a business claim back the service charge, I was a little confused as to why the charge for going over overdraft was only 10.00 on the business account but 30 on the personal, seems others are realising this also.

 

Skeggs

 

No, sorry you can't claim back the service charges.

 

They are monthly account maintenance fees for......well for maintenance, whatever that is ?

Actually for very little really, as we also normally have to pay for each chq, each SO, each DD, and then also additional charges for reviewing and granting an overdraft, additional fees for meetings with managers etc etc etc

 

(so it probably really is for the bubbly at the shareholders meeting ) !!

 

Actually, this could maybe be used as a powerful argument if they try to use their usual "service charge" arguments against your claim for default or Overdraft excess charges ?

If they counter your claim by saying the charge is for the service of reviewing your account and decisions about whether to allow a payment to go through in these circumstances then...

........ " errr... so why am I paying a monthly service charge and appear to be getting nothing in return, surely this monthly charge is to cover such monitoring " ?

 

Regards

 

Photoman

 

BTW: I hope your aware of which legislation and statute is and isn't applicable to Business claims (ie: You can still use pretty much most statute and legislation apart from UTCCR99, check in on the Business claims thread for verification if unsure before posting)

[ataction]

You have agreed to service charges and the interest charged. You have also agreed to pay penalties, but they must reflect the true cost incurred by the banks, and of course that is the crux of the matter.

[Destinyofsouls]

Skeggs, no I came accross this on another site, wondered if it was useful because all T&C's now are being re drawn to show a service charge.

 

Halifax is now quoting:

Paid Item

A transaction processing fee for each card payment, cheque, S/O or D/D that we pay

 

Unpaid Item

 

An administration fee charged when we return unpaid cheque, card payment, d/d , s/o or any transaction we decide not to pay if insufficient funds ....

 

Unarranged O/D administration fee

An overdraft administration fee is applied when your account goes overdrawn without a pre-arranged facility or when it exceeds a pre arranged facility

 

 

Is this a good get out for them???

[Shoestring]

Shouldn't a court see right through those "modifications" as the obvious stratagem it is?

 

On the other hand...

 

Shoestring

[photoman]

Skeggs, no I came accross this on another site, wondered if it was useful because all T&C's now are being re drawn to show a service charge.

 

Halifax is now quoting:

Paid Item

 

A transaction processing fee for each card payment, cheque, S/O or D/D that we pay

 

Unpaid Item

 

An administration fee charged when we return unpaid cheque, card payment, d/d , s/o or any transaction we decide not to pay if insufficient funds ....

 

Unarranged O/D administration fee

 

An overdraft administration fee is applied when your account goes overdrawn without a pre-arranged facility or when it exceeds a pre arranged facility

 

 

Is this a good get out for them???

 

 

 

ohhhhhhh.......... and would that be the "administration" of copious amounts of Champers at the Shareholders meeting ??

 

Seriously though.... if it was difficult to infer concealment was apparent or likely before......... it certainly isn't difficult to claim it's going on now !!

 

......... was that their rights to a 6 year bar under the Statute of Limitations Act I just saw flying out of the window ??

 

Photoman

[victimnomore]

Hmmmm, photoman,

......... was that their rights to a 6 year bar under the Statute of Limitations Act I just saw flying out of the window ??

now, THAT is an excellent point!!

[Destinyofsouls]

Hmmmm, photoman,now, THAT is an excellent point!!

 

 

Sorry you've lost me there!

[sfk1980]

Hello everyone,

 

Could somene please help.

 

I have a court date next month and i need to know what needs to be in my bundle to send to the courts.

 

Also, what evidence can i show to the courts that the charges by Lloyts TSB are a pentaly charge and not a service.

[Muffintop]

Peeps thanks so much for your responses, they have been helpfull although the Halifax getouts a bit mind blowing, the summarise Im going to claim for any charges for direct debit bounces, penalty charges incurred but not going to claim service charges or administration fees for organising further overdraft increases. Dont they make it confusing... I have read the business claims templates and will copy the letters to the book so as not to make a mistake. thanks again skeggsy

[nicsussex]

Hello everyone,

 

Could somene please help.

 

I have a court date next month and i need to know what needs to be in my bundle to send to the courts.

 

Also, what evidence can i show to the courts that the charges by Lloyts TSB are a pentaly charge and not a service.

 

You have left it very late to seek advice - please let us know more details of your claim - would help if you started your own thread in the Lloyds forum - you would then get much more response

[tina9776]

Lloyds has not filed an admission or defence to my claim at moneyclaim on line and their time ran out yesterday. I have done a request for judgement on line requesting that they pay immediately but I don't really know what the next move is. Do Lloyds just have to pay me or can they still file a defence, does it still go to court or what? I'd be very grateful if anyone can help.

[broke dave]

Tina,

Give me a few moments and I will set up a thread for you.

I will then paste the questions on there.

The thread will be tina9776 v LTSB

[davethorp]

Lloyds has not filed an admission or defence to my claim at moneyclaim on line and their time ran out yesterday. I have done a request for judgement on line requesting that they pay immediately but I don't really know what the next move is. Do Lloyds just have to pay me or can they still file a defence, does it still go to court or what? I'd be very grateful if anyone can help.

 

Tina it's better if you start your own thread on your case so people know where you are at and can follow your progress. [EDIT broke dave seems to be doing that for you]

 

However to answer the question Lloyds can (and probably will) apply to have the default judgement set aside and then enter a (more than likely standard) defence