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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Hey everyone my husband has recently sent a CCA request to welcome finance, and they responded with a copy of it, however, the copy given does not have any T&C's attached, does not have a total amount due on it and does not have a cancellations procedure, is this still enforceable or have they not done what he asked in his request

 

Thanks in advance.

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It appears they have not fully complied with your CCA request, they must provide all relevant documents requested within 12 days or they then go into default, a further calendar month after the 12 days ( +2 for postal service ) they commit an offence, I would hold off until that month is complete before taking any further action.

Hope this helps

Friendship costs nothing but its rewards can be priceless. Do not judge, as you will not be judged but if you can, try and assist where possible.:smile:

everyone is entitled to MY opinion!:D

I offer my comments without prejudice or liability.

If you found my advice helpful, please click the scales at the top.

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Well the 12 days are up. But Welcome is now phoning my husband asking for payment. What should he do?

 

Bear in mind that they did supply him with a signed agreement. Its just that the agreement was missing a few things as stated above.

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Hi again,

the CCA request should be complied with within 12 days +2 for postal services. If they have not complied within this time you can with hold any further payments until they forward you a copy of the CCA. A further full month from the end of your 12+2 they commit an offence. I would be tempted to hold off until they offend then send them a letter infoming them you will be reporting them to the relevant authorities.

You could also send them a Harassment letter to stop them from phoning you. You should find it within the templates library.

Friendship costs nothing but its rewards can be priceless. Do not judge, as you will not be judged but if you can, try and assist where possible.:smile:

everyone is entitled to MY opinion!:D

I offer my comments without prejudice or liability.

If you found my advice helpful, please click the scales at the top.

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Hi 120805 the 12 days are working days then the next 30 are calendar days. When your hubby requested his CCA he placed the account in dispute. I assume they're over 12 working days now so are being very naughty in asking for payment. When they phone tell them they are currently in breach of The Consumer Credit Act by not providing you with a properly executed copy of the credit agreement. As such you can withhold payment until they come up with one if you so choose. Also tell them you will not speak to them on the phone and any future calls will be viewed as harassment. Then put the phone down. Write to them reiterating what you have told them on the phone. They're some very good letters on harassment by DCA's on the site. Also have a read of this The Office of Fair Trading: Debt collection practices click on debt collection practices.

Oh yes also put in writing

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DEBT AND THEREFORE REQUIRE YOU TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS BY PROVIDING THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTATION BEFORE I CORRESPOND FURTHER :

 

1. True copy of original credit agreement

2. Statement of account

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

BEWARE OF CLAIMS MANAGEMENT COMPANIES OFFERING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS.

 

 

Please note opinions given by rory32 are offered informally as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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They're some very good letters on harassment by DCA's on the site. Also have a read of this The Office of Fair Trading: Debt collection practices click on debt collection practices.

 

 

Thankyou for the link it has made a very interesting read and certainly clears up a few things for me :)

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Hi everyone,

My husband was looking for some more info with regards to the letter he is thinking of sending in to welcome, should he send in a letter saying they have not done what he asked and then list everything they have missed, ie T&C's cancellation's procedure and total amount payable, or does he let them commit an offence?

We are both unsure as to where we stand just now, the cca has everything else and is signed by my husband, so do they need these missing things to avoid being in default?

 

:confused:

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I would just refer them to your previous correspondence and tell them that they have still to supply you with a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. They know (or should know) exactly what should be on the credit agreement - I wouldn't bother telling them what's missing from the one they sent out. What they have sent you is probably all they have so it's highly likely they'll default. Currently the agreement is not enforceable you want to make this clear to them.

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

BEWARE OF CLAIMS MANAGEMENT COMPANIES OFFERING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS.

 

 

Please note opinions given by rory32 are offered informally as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

 

On {date} I requested you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement. Your correspondence of {date} does not comply with my request. If you do not understand how it does not comply then please seek legal advice.

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act, creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

 

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

 

In summary, I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DEBT AND THEREFORE REQUIRE YOU TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS BY PROVIDING THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTATION BEFORE I CORRESPOND FURTHER :

 

1. True copy of original credit agreement

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.

 

Further to the above, please ensure that any contact by yourselves is made in writing only to the above address. Telephone calls and personal visits will not be accepted and viewed as harassment.

 

I look forward to hearing from you within the statutory time limit.

 

Yours faithfully

 

{Name}

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

BEWARE OF CLAIMS MANAGEMENT COMPANIES OFFERING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS.

 

 

Please note opinions given by rory32 are offered informally as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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Hi

 

Just recently I had a debt of £2700 wiped out because the agreement wasnt upto scratch.

 

it is very important that you study every aspect of the aggreement and compare it to what SHOULD be on there

 

dave

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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Completely agree with Dave. While you might think well it's only missing a couple of bits and pieces so it's more or less okay as a credit agreement, the law doesn't allow for such documentation being more or less okay - it's either in order or not. If it isn't it won't stand up in court and the DCA (if they have a brain in their head - the jury's still out on this one) will know this.

Oh, well done Dave on your recent windfall.

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

BEWARE OF CLAIMS MANAGEMENT COMPANIES OFFERING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS.

 

 

Please note opinions given by rory32 are offered informally as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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i am also having major problems with welcome finance, i asked them for a copy of the agreement and they sent me a minimised photocopy with the wrong house number on it???

also there are no terms and conditions

i have sent welcome a letter last week recorded delivery asking for a proper copy of the agreement with t&c's, and also a copy of the t&c's of the ppi as i never had one. i am also claiming mis-sold ppi as my other half whos agreement it is, is self employed and the ppi does not even cover him.

 

I hate welcome finance

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welcome are famous for a crap service. if your cca request was worded properly they should have sent

 

1 true copy of agreement

2 terms and conditions

3 Statement of account

 

if any of these were missing or illegible they have defaulted on the request. write back and ask them to resend...remind them that the clock is still ticking

 

remember 12 working days then they are in default

 

one further calender month and they have committed an offence

 

dont take any bs

 

rgds

 

Dave

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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  • 3 weeks later...

Had another response from Welcome. This is in relation to the letter that I sent (rory32's template above).

 

They have sent another copy of original agreement, a PPI form, loan application and a d/d mandate all have been filled out when the loan was applied for.

 

Still no t&c's :confused:

 

Will try and scan the forms later tonight when kids are asleep and post them here.

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I can't see anything on there.....at all

 

where are the figures?

where's the apr?

what repayments?

how often?

was it dated

was your sig dated

 

 

we need all this info to check everything is right!

 

just edit any personal data only.

 

you also need the t&c current at the time of signing, and a statement of account

 

Dave

 

more importantly WHERE did you sign it ? (in their office or at home?)

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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Dave

 

The agreement was signed in their offices.

No T&C supplied and a computer screen print out of payments, charges and interest charged.

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent :)

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Hi…

 

What you have is a non-cancellable agreement. And the law lays down certain things a doc MUST have! Below is an excerpt from the oft “non cancellable agreements” dated 2003 but will still cover your agreement

What the agreement must contain

 

1 A heading in one of the following forms of words shown prominently on the first

page:

Hire-Purchase Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974

or

Conditional Sale Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974

or, in any other case,

Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

[the heading is wrong] dave

 

Where the document embodies an agreement, of which at least one part is a credit

agreement not regulated by the Act, the word ‘partly’ must be inserted before

‘regulated’ in the heading – unless the regulated and unregulated parts of the

agreement can be clearly seen to be separate.

 

2 The name and a postal address of both trader and customer.

 

3 A description (in sufficient detail to identify it) of any security to be provided by the

customer and a description of its subject matter. The description must be in the

main agreement, but the full terms can be in a separate document referred to in

the main agreement.

 

4 Details of any default charges which the customer or a relative of his is required to

pay if he breaches the agreement.

 

[no default charges] dave

 

5 Certain financial and related particulars (see below).

 

6 Statements of certain protection and remedies provided for the customer by the

Act (see page 12).

 

[no statements of protection] dave

 

7 A signature box (see page 14).

Office of Fair Trading 7

 

Also

 

 

2 The amount of any advance payment. This includes a deposit, any amount

allowed for part exchange and any other payment the customer has to make

before being provided with credit or before entering into the credit agreement.

 

3 The amount of credit to be provided under a fixed-sum agreement (for example, a

cash loan) or particulars of the credit limit under a running-account agreement (for

example, a credit card).

The credit limit can be expressed as:

a a sum of money

b a statement that the trader will, under the agreement, periodically determine

the credit limit and notify the customer

c a sum of money together with a statement that the trader may, under the

agreement, periodically vary the credit limit and notify the customer, or

d if (a) (b) or © above are not appropriate, either a statement indicating how the

credit limit will be determined and notified to the customer, or a statement that

there is no credit limit.

 

4 The total charge for credit and the total amount payable by the customer in the

case of most fixed-sum agreements. The exceptions are given below. Charges

payable by the customer that form part of the total charge for credit are explained

in the booklet Credit charges and APR (see page 3). The total amount payable is

the sum of the amount of credit provided under the agreement, the total charge

for credit and any advance payments. If either the total charge for credit or the

total amount payable cannot be precisely calculated, an estimate can be shown –

provided that this and any assumptions made in the estimate are stated.

 

[ no total amount payable] dave

 

5 not relevant

 

6 The timing and amount of repayments of credit and credit charges. Timing can be

shown by one or more of the following methods:

$ the dates on which each repayment is to be made

or

$ the frequency and number of repayments together with the first repayment

date, or how this is to be calculated

 

7 The APR which must be denoted as ‘annual percentage rate of the total charge for

credit’, ‘APR’ or ‘annual percentage rate’. The only case in which APR need not be shown is in a fixed-sum agreement for credit to be spent on specified goods, land or services where the total amount payable is not more than the total cash price (that is, there are no credit charges). In that case there must be a statement indicating this.

 

-------------------------

 

Statements of customer’s protection and remedies which must be shown

Statements about the main rights of customers provided by the Act must be included in

the agreement in the form set out in Appendix 1. The statement must reproduce the

specified wording. Where words are shown in capital letters they must be made more

prominent (by using capital letters, underlining, large or bold print, or in any other way)

than any other lettering in the form, and no less prominent than any other information

in the agreement, apart from the heading, the APR, trade names, names of parties to the agreement or handwriting.

 

The agreement appears to fall down in that the

 

heading is wrong

 

no statements of protection

 

no statements of remedies

 

No other T&C

 

Total amount of loan is not shown

 

Where you aware of the PPI ?

The healthcare is part of that.

 

Anyway lots of stuff to be going on with

 

Dave

  • Haha 2

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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Thanks Dave

 

Certainly a lot to digest. I will read through again before I decide how to proceed with this. Since Hillesden aren't chasing me as such I think I have a little bit of time to go through it and plan what to do next.

 

Lan

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent :)

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Thanks Dave

 

Certainly a lot to digest. I will read through again before I decide how to proceed with this. Since Hillesden aren't chasing me as such I think I have a little bit of time to go through it and plan what to do next.

 

Lan

 

thanks for the click :)

 

it was a welcome agreement where i walked away free...they wiped off £2700 because of a crap agreement...very similar to yours

 

Dave

  • Haha 1

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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120803, sorry for hyjacking your thread, but hopefully Dave has answered both of our questions :)

 

I'll keep you posted as to how I get on and please let me know how you get on with yours.

 

Dave

 

You deserved the click :) your advice and insight into this matter is much appreciated. As I said earlier now I need to go through everything and plan what to do next.

 

Once again thank you very much for your help so far.

 

Lan

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent :)

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