Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
    • Not sure what to make of that or what it means for me, I was just about to head to my kip and it's a bit too late for legalise. When is the "expenditure occured"?  When they start spending money to write to me?  Or is this a bad thing (as "harsh" would imply)? When all is said and done, I do not have two beans to rub together, we rent our home and EVERYTHING of value has been purchased by and is in my wife's name and we are not financially linked in any way.  So at least if I can't escape my fate I can at least know that they will get sweet FA from me anyway   edit:  ah.. Sophia Harrison: Time bar decision tough on claimants WWW.SCOTTISHLEGAL.COM Time bar is a very complex area of law in Scotland relating to the period in which a claim for breach of duty can be pursued. The Scottish government...   This explains it like I am 5.  So, a good thing then because creditors clearly know they have suffered a loss the minute I stop paying them, this is why it is "harsh" (for them, not me)? Am I understanding this correctly?  
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

Claiming beyond 6 yrs - important new information!!!


BankFodder
style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 5717 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Has anybody been successful claiming beyond 6 years, NatWest are telling me they only hold records for 7 yeats then they are destroyed. Where do I go from here?

 

We have plenty of reliable evidence that Natwest can provide statements back to at least 1992. Did they state this to you in writing?

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Replies 973
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Hi, I have just managed to get back £4110 from Barclays bank and am now interested in challenging them regarding fees that are beyond 6 years ago. Does anyone have any difinitive text I could use firstly in a letter to them secondly when taking them to court.

I understand its relating to the limitations act but am not sure how to word it.....I have already sent for information regarding the amount owed to Barclays but am keen to get my head around the whole thing.

 

Secondly I would just like to say thank you to everyone on here, your posts been an invaluable asset to me both with respect to what I need to do but also giving me confidence in the face of the banks threatening behaviour....

 

if you read posts above you will find suggested wording for particulars of claim in a post made by zootscoot.

 

The standard prelim and LBA letters will be fine to use without amendment - all you are doing is informing them the amount you are claiming, backed up by a schedule which will give them the dates.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest NATTIE

Bong, i very rarely quote from internal bank manuals but on this occasion i can and will. Ok, i will paraphrase, on the NatWest Archive" statements can be provided 7 years prior to migration". Migration is change of NatWest computer system. so that would make it 1995, however the old NatWest computer system recorded on the notes system charges and what they were for, that goes back to 1991/2 so that information should mean that charges info back to then does and will exist.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have statements going back to 1998 wehn I opened my RBOS account. It is not a complete set, and when i sent off my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request), only 6 years were returned.

 

RBS records go back 15 years so you will be able to get the missing statements. did you only ask for 6 in your SAR?

Link to post
Share on other sites

RBS records go back 15 years so you will be able to get the missing statements. did you only ask for 6 in your S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)?

I did in a post on the previuos page in a question relating to Clydesdale.My question was can I just send a covering letter to ignore the initial letter as I now require all my info?

Link to post
Share on other sites

anything's worth a try. If they say no then you'll have to wait a while (is it a month?) and then send another request. but you should be ok I'd say if they haven't actioned it yet.

Link to post
Share on other sites

anything's worth a try. If they say no then you'll have to wait a while (is it a month?) and then send another request. but you should be ok I'd say if they haven't actioned it yet.

Cheers,like you say its worth a try,they aint gonna have the original info here within the 40 days anyway if alot of other CB posts are anything to go by.........

Link to post
Share on other sites

You need to make reference to the Limitation Act in your POC otherwise the defendant is likely to go straight for strike out for the charges outside the six year period.

Is there any way to counter this without having to revise the POC. Respond to the defence, add to the witness statement and court bundle?

If I have helped click my scales....

 

Find my threads by clicking here

Link to post
Share on other sites

RBS records go back 15 years so you will be able to get the missing statements. did you only ask for 6 in your S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)?

 

The S.A.R. I sent off was non specific, but only 6 years were returned, as I think just returning the statuatory Limitation ammount will be enough to satisfy most customers. Still undecided, as my total for 6 years is £3800, without statuatory Interest. much more will take my case over the £5k threshold, which is something I am uneasy with. I may consider it as a seperate claim once my current 6 year claim is settled.

Link to post
Share on other sites

anyone goned back further with Nationwide? they told me six years only.

muffintop

Won Nationwide £900 and £1908 Bank Charges

Lloyds personal account 1,861

Lloyds Bus Account 2k

Abbey bank acc. Stayed 2008

 

CCA requested Barclaycard Nov 08 - n1 issued - GAVE UP

CCA Mbna Nov 08- n1 issued - GAVE UP

Marks and Spencer Money Nov 08 -lost found 2b enforceable.

Tomson Holiday - WON

 

if I help you tip my little scales it gives me a thrill. MT

Link to post
Share on other sites

The S.A.R. I sent off was non specific, but only 6 years were returned, as I think just returning the statuatory Limitation ammount will be enough to satisfy most customers. Still undecided, as my total for 6 years is £3800, without statuatory Interest. much more will take my case over the £5k threshold, which is something I am uneasy with. I may consider it as a seperate claim once my current 6 year claim is settled.

 

Just be aware that there are higher risks of losing with a claim which is fully outside 6 years. I shouldn't worry about the 5K threshold either - and just in case you aren't aware - stat interest isn't counted for track allocation.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have just been through All of my statements that I have dating back to March 1998. Remarkably I must have been far more organised than I am now, and I am only around 5 pages of statements missing, taking me upto the the time when my SAR took effect, i.e Feb 2001. For the sake of a few missing pages, and waiting for the bank to respond to a 2nd SAR, and possibly still managing to cock things up, I am going to enter all charges that I can find pre 6 years onto my Schedule of charges, and alter my preliminary Letter with the new figure. I still feel uneasy about it, but it has to be less risky than putting in a claim which is 100% outside the limitation period.

 

As a word of general advice, is there anything I should be writing on my Preliminary letter, notifying them that I intend to claim beyond the 6 year period???

 

Also do I have to do anything different if my claim surpasses £5k????

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have just been through All of my statements that I have dating back to March 1998. Remarkably I must have been far more organised than I am now, and I am only around 5 pages of statements missing, taking me upto the the time when my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) took effect, i.e Feb 2001. For the sake of a few missing pages, and waiting for the bank to respond to a 2nd SAR (why would you need a second SAR? one SAR should cover all personal data they hold about you.), and possibly still managing to cock things up, I am going to enter all charges that I can find pre 6 years onto my Schedule of charges, and alter my preliminary Letter with the new figure. I still feel uneasy about it, but it has to be less risky than putting in a claim which is 100% outside the limitation period.

 

As a word of general advice, is there anything I should be writing on my Preliminary letter, notifying them that I intend to claim beyond the 6 year period??? (just the date of first charge and last chagre perhaps as well as the total amount of charges claimed.)

 

Also do I have to do anything different if my claim surpasses £5k????

 

There is a chance it may not go into small claims but some over 5k have and some under 5k haven't so I beleive.

 

Tanz

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Many thanks for the advice Tanz. The reason I thought a 2nd SAR would be required was ,when sent my first SAR 6 years were returned. I dont want to hold things up for upto another 40 days whilst they send the next batch of statements out which are prior to the 6 year limitation. As I said I am only a few missing, not really worth it.

 

I will ammend the dates on my preliminary letter, and also re-print my ammened schedule of charges.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bong,

Just be aware that there are higher risks of losing with a claim which is fully outside 6 years

Why is this - only curious since I've begun a second round with RBS - the first having concluded before we were aware of 'concealment'?

Link to post
Share on other sites

kennyh

 

I wouldn't worry about this. The issue on concealment is still a valid argument. Many people who claimed beyond 6 years in the past got their money like anyone else.

 

However, the main crunch of the matter is technicality. The banks may try to argue the statute of limitation by asking for the 6 years bar. As a claimant, you are allowed to present your argument too. The onus is on the bank to come to the open court to defend their argument but they have so far failed to come, except in cases of technicalities where claimants could not present their case correctly.

 

Therefore, if any claim is compiled correctly with the POC and schedule of charges in order, the bank cannot have the case thrown out on technicalities. Then, the bank has to be ready to pursue the case to the full hearing to defend their argument or pay up.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bong,

 

Why is this - only curious since I've begun a second round with RBS - the first having concluded before we were aware of 'concealment'?

 

I think Bong may be referring to the fact that there have been cases where the claim has not been able to be kept intact, by this I mean that the charges for the last 6 years have been refunded and then when it got to court the defendants solicitor argued that they had refunded the charges and that they charges element was not now relevant and the judge agreed and wouldn't then discuss them further. If however you can keep all the claim intact by refusing offers of the current charges and keeping them intrisically linked to the older charges, then this give you the ability to argue the unlawfullness of the charges element and you will more likely get a settlement prior to a court appearance as the defendant would not want to risk going in and being forced to disclose their costs, which we all know would be well under £30-£39 and more like 50p.

 

Tanz

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bong,

 

Why is this - only curious since I've begun a second round with RBS - the first having concluded before we were aware of 'concealment'?

 

this is because the banks will try and claim that as there has been no court ruling over whether the charges are unlawful, the foundation of your claim of concealment and/or mistake is unproven.

 

check out these threads http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/royal-bank-scotland/11427-walton-rbos-9.html#post489156 and http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/nationwide/54166-taylors-nationwide-3rd-time-4.html#post629559

 

That is not to say that your case is bound to fail, I think these judges' decisions were flawed and could have been appealed but the advice has to be that there is a higher risk of losing and you are better off, if you can, keeping some recent charges in the claim and refusing to accept a payment of them, so that you can insist on having the nature of the charges determined in conjunction with the limitation argument, and the bank will be more likely to settle rather than stepping inside the court room. I know in your case it's not possible and even if recent charges are in the claim some banks will still try to have parts of the claim struck out, so it's a risk anyway in bringing these types of claims.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Fortunately being a squirrel has paid off ('just the once' as the wife might say) and I have all of our statements - it's now a question of rehersing the ci aspect since, f'rinstance a £45 charge from the mid 90s now translates to £700+, so they ain't gonna go quietly! As I mentioned earlier - this will be all old costs since we have already settled the 6 year period pre - concealment.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If Bong is correct in "Taylors v Nationwide 3rd time"

so it all boils down to the fact that unless we get evidence of actual costs we cannot win claims for unlawful charges in court.
AND If we are now using the Whistleblower information (how solid can we assume that is) as the trigger for s32 based action, AND if the banks have steadfastly refused to justify their costs, and defend themselves in court, since the cases referred to (AND since with due diligence, deep pockets and large legal divisions, the banks COULD have found that their charges were a penalty under common law) does that not give a new degree of credence to our claims of pre 6 years?
Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Bankfodder

 

Please!! Please!! Please!! I am really hoping you will be able to advise us.

 

We put in an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) for six years at the end of March 2007. Thanks to you and this excellent site we have now found out we can go back further. Can you advise us how to go about making a further request for the remainder nine years??

 

Many thanks and regards

Deeks

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...