Mbna - Properly Executed Agreements

[angry cat]

Thanks m55 and...I will reiterate that MBNA are driving me crazy!!!

 

I am so unhappy about what they have done and are doing to me. Yesterday I felt so miserable because I have been fighting them for so long, my protests/complaints get me nowhere. Think I'll just throw the towel in an let them take me to court.

 

AC

[Rhia]

Angry Cat, take THEM to court. What haven't they done? Complied with SAR, refunded your penalties? Take court action tomorrow. Call it your Loreal Moment - because you're worth it.

[ss_collins]

What is to stop MBNA adding a sig and a date to every for as they send it out?

[m55dlc]

Because if they do, and someone asks for a repeat one and a sig appears, they will lose their license and be closed down. Fraud on that kind of level will not be accepted by the authorities and MBNA know this. There is a fine line between riding roughshod over your 'customers' and a smoking gun that closes them down.

[ss_collins]

I fgured that but its been nagging me,

 

I've not seen a copy of my MBNA agreement/application since it was filled in - I certainly don't have a copy - assuming that they read this, why would he not just add a sig and a date now. They would already know that I don't have a copy... I mean we know that they (banks/cards etc) are already breaking the law in a pretty hard fashion.

[ladybird17]

well I can think of lots of reasons ...how do they know you don't have the original? If you ask for a copy this would mean they would send a copy out to you with a different sig. & possibly date. That would bu**er them for start.

 

Supposing you genuinely thought you has lost your agreement, asked for another, (which they send signed by Mr. Anybody who's working there on that day)and then you found the original?

 

Suppose they were investigated and it came to light that "Mr. Anybody" didn't work for them when you took out the original agreement?

 

And your suggestion is so overtly fraudulent/malpractice etc. that I don't think that even MBNA would subcribe to something that as my learned colleague m55 has already said, would shut the whole kaboosh down.

 

And that's for starters.

[The Lantana]

I think the reason they don't 'forge' signatures on agreements is because, although a signature is required under the act, most Judges will not consider a lack of the creditors signature a material breach and will happily allow enforcement, all else being in order.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[ladybird17]

Very valid point also, Lantana. I have trouble assimmilating in my mind that financial institutions, with their vast resources can freely abuse the court system, waste everyone's time & money - be allowed stays willy-nilly, get the CCA re-interpeted in court so that what the Act actually stipulates in not applied to them - with the little old consumer who knocks himself out to do everything "by the book" in order to re-claim what is rightfully his/hers, and the resulting stress, financial "embarassment" etc. It grieves me when people come on here and tell us that they can't afford the £120 court fees, so it will have to wait until next pay day.

[Cornucopia]

Hi Guys (except M55, who is already aware of this from my thread),

 

MBNA have "attempted" to comply with my CCA request by way of what seems to me to be a cut and shuffle document. Bits and pieces have obviously been blanked out by stickers and then the pages photocopied. They have also provided a third copy of Mr Corn's application form.

 

I can't scan this but would be pleased to fax it to anybody who might take a look at it for me and give me a measured opinion.

 

M55 seems to think he has the same thing.

 

I personally think this is a panic response on behalf of MBNA.

[The Lantana]

Hi Corn

 

Sadly I don't have a fax, but it sounds like you're in the clear. To have any chance of enforcement in court they must, at the very least, produce a piece of paper signed by you (or Mr Corn) that has an interest rate, a credit limit (or reference to one) and a repayment schedule.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[Cornucopia]

Hi Corn

 

Sadly I don't have a fax, but it sounds like you're in the clear. To have any chance of enforcement in court they must, at the very least, produce a piece of paper signed by you (or Mr Corn) that has an interest rate, a credit limit (or reference to one) and a repayment schedule.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

 

Hi Lantana, thank you for replying, just to clarify, they have provided the following :

 

Application form, obviously signed by Mr Corn and a stamp on it across the bit that says Principl Cardholder's Application & Declaration.

 

A sheet headed MBNA Europe Bank Limited with Mr Corn's name and address credit card number and credit limit. This has also got a box on it saying Important Security Information (please read the information below carefully), I am wondering if this is a credit card mailer. It then looks like stickers have been placed over bits of info and then it's been photocopied.

 

On the same page it says Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 Terms And Conditions (this is a copy of your agreement for you to keep. It includes a notice about your cancellation rights which you should read). It has on it various aprs for card purchases balance transfers, cheque transactions and cash transactions. This runs onto a second photocopied page, which again has a sticker at the bottom under the bit headed "complaints" which is obviously blanking out something they don't want us to see!

 

The next page is Terms and Conditions of use with another set of aprs (but different amounts this time, in fact lower apr's than on the other sheet). There are no visible signatures on any of these pages.

 

It looks like a right cut and shuffle. Now if they had this information before, why did they not provide it within the 12 + 30 and why have the DCA been unable to produce it at all? This is the third time they have sent an application form purporting to be an "agreement".

 

What now batman???!!

[Cornucopia]

Hi Lantana, thank you for replying, just to clarify, they have provided the following :

 

Application form, obviously signed by Mr Corn and a stamp on it across the bit that says Principl Cardholder's Application & Declaration.

 

A sheet headed MBNA Europe Bank Limited with Mr Corn's name and address credit card number and credit limit. This has also got a box on it saying Important Security Information (please read the information below carefully), I am wondering if this is a credit card mailer. It then looks like stickers have been placed over bits of info and then it's been photocopied.

 

On the same page it says Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 Terms And Conditions (this is a copy of your agreement for you to keep. It includes a notice about your cancellation rights which you should read). It has on it various aprs for card purchases balance transfers, cheque transactions and cash transactions. This runs onto a second photocopied page, which again has a sticker at the bottom under the bit headed "complaints" which is obviously blanking out something they don't want us to see!

 

The next page is Terms and Conditions of use with another set of aprs (but different amounts this time, in fact lower apr's than on the other sheet). There are no visible signatures on any of these pages.

 

It looks like a right cut and shuffle. Now if they had this information before, why did they not provide it within the 12 + 30 and why have the DCA been unable to produce it at all? This is the third time they have sent an application form purporting to be an "agreement".

 

What now batman???!!

 

Just a bit of additional information, I have noticed that the credit limit on this forgery is actually one that was set in the last few years, not the limit that the card was when it was taken out in 1996. This is outrageous!!

[The Lantana]

Well in my case I wrote back to MBNA saying their response fell well short of what was required under the act. I've had zilch back from them since. Others take a different stance and simply ignore them from now on - the choice is yours Corn.

 

BA will likely have a very strong view on this.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[Cornucopia]

Well in my case I wrote back to MBNA saying their response fell well short of what was required under the act. I've had zilch back from them since. Others take a different stance and simply ignore them from now on - the choice is yours Corn.

 

BA will likely have a very strong view on this.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

 

Lantana, this is a blatent forgery, I have a plan;)

 

Regards,

 

Corn x:)

[The Lantana]

I'd be honestly surprised if this was an attempt at forgery Corn. They probably have an explanation (albeit a very silly one) for what they've sent.

 

They may well be complying with the act insofar as what they sent is a true copy of what they consider to be the agreement they hold in relation to the account. Unfortunately for them, however, the 'agreement' itself doesn't stand up.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[m55dlc]

They're not allowed to use constructive conjecture (this is what it would look like) and they know that. The one they sent to me is a farce. I bet the blanking stickers on hers match mine 100%

 

It is a forgery, plain and simple. They cannot state anything lawful as a purpose. These guys are supposed to have a license for %^&*( sake, they're supposed to know this.

[Cornucopia]

They're not allowed to use constructive conjecture (this is what it would look like) and they know that. The one they sent to me is a farce. I bet the blanking stickers on hers match mine 100%

 

It is a forgery, plain and simple. They cannot state anything lawful as a purpose. These guys are supposed to have a license for %^&*( sake, they're supposed to know this.

 

I agree M, the credit limit illustrated is about 10K over what it was when the card was taken out, it has blanking stickers too, prob exactly the same, it has two different sets of T&C's with different apr's. It also has a weird barcode thing on the application that wasn't there on the other copies they sent me.

[ladybird17]

aah - now "credit card mailers" have bar codes on them............

[The Lantana]

Yes m55, and yes Corn. However if they were going to go to all the trouble to 'forge' something, you'd think they'd forge something that would pass as an agreement.

 

The stuff stuck on was probably stuck on to help process the original application paperwork - something they're now paying a high price for. I have something like it from HSBC. It's been produced as a result of shoddy procedures in their operations centre. Forgery suggests criminal intent and bad as MBNA are, I doubt they'd go there.

 

When faced with s78 requests lenders can...

 

1) Comply by sending a copy of the valid agreement.

 

2) Comply without a valid agreement, by sending a copy of what they hold as the agreement. It's for a court to determine if the agreement is valid or not!

 

3) Write back saying that they've no agreement and there's no need to pay us anymore.

 

4) Fail to comply and commit an offence.

 

Now if I were a lender and only had an application form to send to the debtor, I'd send it to comply with the s78 request. None of the letters I've had from lenders have made any reference to the validity of the agreement sent. Indeed, why should it.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[ladybird17]

I hear what you're saying Lantana, but what's the rationale behind sending a copy of the application form to comply with S78? - because it doesn't!

[The Lantana]

Hi LB, by sending the application (if that's all they have) they comply with s78 and avoid potential legal sanction. They presumably will say to TS, if tackled, that as far as they're concerned that's the agreement.

 

Many peeps have been sent 'applications' and accept them as being valid agreements. Personally I challenge the rubbish they send me, if appropriate.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[ladybird17]

Hmm, you would have thought with all the info on here, people would not get conned into believing applications are agreements.

Given the amount threads concerned with the validity of what has been received in response to CCA requests, I would hope, by now, the penny is dropping!

[The Lantana]

The penny is dropping for many, but not for all. Not all CCA requests are sent by CAGer's.

 

Always remember....

 

Who CAG's wins!

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[ladybird17]

yes, like it! And I have just quoted, on another thread, the old adage of "reading, to the mind, is like exercise to the body"

 

Insert "CAGging" for "reading"!!

[davefirewalker]

Hi all

 

Subscribing......

 

waiting for my agreement off MBNA.........waiting........waiting.......

 

12 days is well up they are now at least 10 days into default period

just got a "statement" today (sat) with the promise of my agreement to follow "shortly".....hmmmm

 

just added.... mine is a loan rather than a cc

 

Dave