Credit Agreement request from Moorcroft Debt Recovery Ltd

[bed32]

I wonder whether sending those cards can be regarded as harassment under the Admin of Justice Act 1970 or the Protection from Harassment Act of 1997.

In the PoC for a case I have just started I have claimed that since the DCA has no intention of turning up the purpose of these cards is only to cause fear and anxiety, sending even one puts them in breach of the AoJ and coupled with any other action puts them in breach of Pfha.

 

I am looking forwards to see how (a) the defendant's lawyers respond to that one and (b) how the Judge interprets it

[b8byd]

Thank you, i've calmed down a bit now and your support is great. I'm going to draft a letter to them, and i'll post it here before I send.

 

Thanks again

[b8byd]

The agreement says it's for an internet application, was this applied for online and at what date, as CCA was changed to allow for electronic signatures.

If it was 2005 onwards then they have fully complied and the CCA is valid.

 

I can't remember if I applied by internet, but it was definitely prior to 2005 - the date on my credit file for the commencement of this account is 11 October 2001.

 

Is this good news for me?

[b8byd]

Here's my draft letter to them.... does anyone have any comments? Thanks

 

I write with reference to your ‘Notice of Intended Visit’ dated 3 July 2007.

Please be aware that you do not have permission from me to visit my premises. If you or a representative from your company does visit, such person will be committing a civil trespass to which Allied International Credit will be personally or jointly liable.

In an attempt to clear this debt as quickly as possible, I am hereby making a repayment offer based on my current income and expenditure. You will see from the attached schedule that I am proposing to pay Allied International Credit ₤22.60 per month in respect of the above debt. This figure was arrived at by subtracting my monthly expenditure from my monthly income, and dividing the balance between my current creditors proportionately to the respective figures owed.

I attach a postal order for ₤22.60 which represents my payment for July. I should be grateful if you would provide your bank account details by return so that I may arrange a standing order with my bank so that you may be paid the remaining instalments by automatic bank credit. If this method of payment is not suitable, I should be grateful if you would make an alternative suggestion.

I look forward to establishing a mutually acceptable payment arrangement with you.

 

Only thing i'm concerned about - if the credit agreement is not valid, does this letter constitute my agreement to the debt?

 

b8byd

[ODC]

I wouldnt send anything about payments just yet until you are 100% sure the CCA is valid. Never set up a Direct Debit with these Morons they can alter it if they wish. A standing order puts you in control

[b8byd]

Can Curlyben or anybody else have a look at posts 74 and 78 above and tell me if the credit agreement is enforceable? Also see the photobucket link above.

 

I really need to know as I keep getting messages from D Brown and he is clearly trying to intimidate me by the tone of his voice. I will not speak to him over the phone, but I want to write and get them off my back. If its enforceable then I want to negotiate a payment plan with them.

 

Please help :o

[make them aktiv runners]

Not read all thread so forgive me if I repeat anything anyone has already said.

 

Post 79 says it all. As they are trying to make you believe they are knocking on your door, it is unlikely they actually have an agreement. If it was a valid agreement surely their most obvious move would be to issue an immediate court summons (not pretend they may).

 

I cannot read all the agreement. Can work out that you appear tohave signed it but there is no-where for them to have signed. That made be suspicious, then I spotted the obvious - looks like some-one has "accidently" cut off the topt of the form before you got it. Now, wonder why that might happen, why is there no big NatWest logo at the top - probably because it clearly would have said "application form" as well!!!!

 

Read the text as that probably also refers to the "application" and their right to refuse you. All it proves is that you applied, it is not the CCA which should have been sent out separtely I believe - check with Rory to be sure.

 

Finally did the envelope come fom NatWest, just wondering if it is definately NatWest who typed the letter.

[b8byd]

Thanks for looking at this for me. Yeah the text is really bad because the A4 page has the 'credit agreement' squished in the top right hand corner of the page, and 'internet application' details down the left hand side. Not sure if these are 2 separate docs or not.

 

The 'credit agreement' has Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 at the top.... but just before the signature, the wording of the declaration is as follows:

 

Declaration

I confirm that I am over the age of majority and that the information given above is true and complete.

I consent to the Bank making any enquiries deemed necessary in connection with this application [emphasis added].

I confirm that I have read and agree to be bound of the Conditions of Use enclosed (including the abridged conditions set out overleaf).

I apply for a NatWest Credit Card and PIN to be issued to me.

I hereby request and authorise you to issue in accordance with the Conditions of Use enclosed (includign the abridged conditions set out overleaf) an additional cred card(s) to the person(s) named who is over the age of majority for use on my account.

 

Then there is space for Principal Cardholder and Additional Cardholder signatures, but not signatures for the bank.

 

None of the other pages are signed.

 

It sounds like an application doesn't it - but its headed 'credit agreement'.

 

 

Sorry, I don't have the envelope still, but it seems to be handsigned by someone called L Mitchell in the Credit Reference Agency Department.

 

Thanks for your help aktiv - I will also PM Rory.

[ODC]

Check YOUR signature vry carefully. Is it the signature you would normally have used or could it possibly be cut and pasted from a recent letter you may have sent these very 'creative ' people. If D Brown was so certain they had a proper executed CCA they would be taking you to court. NEVER NEVER speak to these monkeys on the phone as they use a wide variety of tactics to bluff and intimidate you. Simply write back to them and tell them they have failed to produve a VALID CCA and as a consequence are now in default

[b8byd]

Sorry to be a pain, but could you let me know exactly what makes the CCA invalid? Is it because it says '... this application' or because there is no signature for the lender?

 

And if its not a credit agreement - why does it say 'credit agreement' at the top of the page?

 

The signature looks ok to me, but I use the same one for everything so I wouldn't know any different.

 

Worst case scenario for me would be to get a CCJ so I want to be really certain.

 

Thanks again

[Curlyben]

There are certain things that MUST be on a credit agreement:

 

S61(1)(a) CCA provides that, for a regulated agreement to be properly executed, it must contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement and conform to regulations under s60(1) – see Q1.14.

 

Reg 6(1) provides that the terms specified in Sch 6 to the Agreements Regulations are ‘prescribed terms’ for the purposes of s61(1)(a) and s127(3) – see Q8.2.

 

8.2 What if prescribed terms are missing or incorrect?

 

s127(3) provides that the court may not make an enforcement order unless a document containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor – see Q1.21.

 

If therefore any of the prescribed terms is missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor, and the court is precluded from making an enforcement order.

 

 

8.3 What are the prescribed terms?

 

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows:

 

* amount of credit – see Q8.

 

* credit limit – see Q8.5

* repayments – see Q8.9.

* rate of interest – see Q8.6

 

Sch 6 was not amended by the 2004 Regulations.

 

Also to be properly excuted both your and there signatures must be on it.

 

If these terms are missing then there's your defence.

This has already made precdent in a famous case, details here: House of Lords - Wilson and others v. Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Appellant)

[b8byd]

Thank you.

 

In their cover letter, NatWest say:

 

We are obliged to provide a 'true' copy of the credit agreement. In terms of CCA copy document regulations, the 'true' copy requirement can be satisfied by providing a copy agreement at the date the card agreement was made and providing that [sic] plus a copy of the current terms of the card agreement.

 

I have enclosed that information.

 

Its true that they have enclosed the terms and conditions - which according to them satisfies the 'prescribed terms' requirement (kindly provided by Curlyben above).

 

But am I arguing that because the 'agreement/application' isn't signed by NatWest then it is not a valid credit agreement under the CCA?

[Curlyben]

The agreement needs to have all the terms on it along with YOUR signature.

So we are more concerned with the application form then the attached T&C's.

 

Is this a standard mailer application form ?

If so then it DOESN'T comply with CCA in the slightest.

[b8byd]

I must have applied online, then they sent me the 'agreement' to sign.

 

Is it ok to send this letter to Natwest... and a similar one to AIC?

 

I wrote to you on the 8 June 2007 enclosing a copy of my request to Moorcroft Debt Recovery Limited under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and expressing my concern that you had instructed another debt collection agency with respect to the above alleged debt before compliance with my request had been carried out.

You have subsequently responded by sending me a copy of a credit card application form. I have not received a copy of an executed agreement in respect of the alleged debt.

Consequently, I do not acknowledge any debt to your company.

I have copied this letter to Allied International Credit who are still pursuing me for the alleged debt.

[b8byd]

00

[b8byd]

I've received the following from NatWest today:

 

Regarding your recent letter concerning the Banks alleged breach of the CCA act [sic] I would advise you of the following.

 

Any request for a copy of an executed agreement under s78(1), states that the company must meet it's statuary [sic] requirements by providing a 'true copy' of the agreement relevant to the card product at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card product. These copies should be accompanied by the statement of financial information relating to the account - the state of the account, amount currently due, amounts and due dates of future payments that will require to be made.

 

As we have supplied a copy of the application form that you signed, copy of the Terms and conditions of that card product, a most recent statement showing the outstanding balance and advised you who to contact to discuss amounts due and owing, and future payments that must be paid. We have therefore met out obligations under s78(1) to provide a copy of that executed agreement and again we are satisfied that what was provided complied with the Regulations expressly made for controlling what is a 'true copy'. We suggest that you take advice from your local Citizen's Advice Bureau or other similar organisation if you continue to doubt the veracity of what we have told you about our having complied with our obligations under s78(1).

 

I must therefore inform you that we see no reason to enter into further correspondence with you about the alleged CCA breaches you lay at our door. If you are not satisfied with this final response, you may see seek [sic] whatever legal redress you consider is open to you or you may refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service within six months of the date of this letter. I enclose a copy of the Financial Ombudsman's leaflet, which explains the scope of the service and how a referral can be made.

 

Your indebtedness to this account remains due and payable and we will be pursuing for the full repayment.

 

I trust this clarifies matters for you.

 

So they are basically saying that they did send an application form rather than a credit agreement, but they consider that to be satisfactory fulfilment of the CCA because they also sent me (albeit in a separate doc) the prescribed terms.

 

The signed document they sent me does not contain any of the prescribed terms required by the CCA. To me, s61(1)(a) is quite clear - a properly executed agreement must CONTAIN the prescribed terms. Therefore they have not complied with my request?

 

Please (please) could somebody confirm that I have got this right, and I will respond to them.

 

The DCA on this (AIC) has been calling me on my mobile every day, despite me writing to them and telling them the account is in dispute and that i consider their continual calls to be harassment. I requested that they stop calling and should only write to me, but they've ignored me completely. I'm not too bothered as I can ignore any withheld numbers, but I just would like somebody to confirm what I think is true (that NatWest are still in non-compliance of my CCA request) and then I will know how to proceed.

 

Thank you!

[Mrsmancmonkey]

Hi - my sister has received the same letter yesterday from Natwest after sending the one below, have you sent this one? If so I will be watching your thread with interest as I dont know what to do next either

 

In reply to your letter dated .

Now relating to the fact that I am still to receive a true copy of my agreement I am surprised that you (you being Natwest) feel that you have fulfilled your obligation under Section 77 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Now this is what Section 77 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 actually says:

 

Section 77 Duty to give information to debtor under fixed-sum credit agreement

 

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for fixed-sum credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of £1, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

 

I refer back to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 to explain an executed agreement:

 

Section 61 Signing of agreement

(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner

 

Now the agreement you have sent me as a copy of my agreement is lacking both Natwests signatures and my signature, so how can this be a copy of the actual agreement? I am surprised at Natwests lack of knowledge surrounding the Consumer Credit Act and what constitutes an executed agreement.

 

As I see it, you are still yet to supply me the agreement I requested, the timeframe that the Consumer Credit Act sets out, is 12 working days from original request, my original request was dated 18th June. This account is now In default and while in default you are unable to enforce this alleged debt which includes but is not limited to:

 

· You may not demand any payment on this account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

· You may not add any further interest or charges to this account.

· You may not pass this account to any third party.

· You may not register any information in respect of this account with any of the credit reference agencies.

· You may not issue a default notice related to this account.

 

Until the agreement is supplied, payment will cease. If you try to persue these payments or issue court proceedings against me, I will strongly defend any measure you may take, asking for an order from Court to produce the original signed agreement.

 

I look forward to finally receiving a copy of my agreement.

Yours faithfully

[PriorityOne]

I've received the following from NatWest today:

 

Regarding your recent letter concerning the Banks alleged breach of the CCA act [sic] I would advise you of the following.

 

Any request for a copy of an executed agreement under s78(1), states that the company must meet it's statuary [sic] requirements by providing a 'true copy' of the agreement relevant to the card product at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card product. These copies should be accompanied by the statement of financial information relating to the account - the state of the account, amount currently due, amounts and due dates of future payments that will require to be made.

 

Seems like they hav some understand of a CCA request so far...

 

As we have supplied a copy of the application form that you signed oh dear... sorry guys.... an Application is not a CCA , copy of the Terms and conditions of that card product product ?... very vague, a most recent statement showing the outstanding balance and advised you who to contact to discuss amounts due and owing, and future payments that must be paid. We have therefore met out obligations under s78(1) to provide a copy of that executed agreement no they haven't and again we are satisfied that what was provided complied with the Regulations expressly made for controlling what is a 'true copy' then they need to go and read up. We suggest that you take advice from your local Citizen's Advice Bureau or other similar organisation if you continue to doubt the veracity big words .... "veracity ?".... what's veracity ? of what we have told you about our having complied with our obligations under s78(1).

 

I must therefore inform you that we see no reason to enter into further correspondence with you about the alleged CCA breaches you lay at our door. In an ideal world, this should mean that they'll berger off then.... but that's not what they mean.... . If you are not satisfied with this final response, you may see seek [sic] whatever legal redress you consider is open to you or you may refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service within six months of the date of this letter. I enclose a copy of the Financial Ombudsman's leaflet, which explains the scope of the service and how a referral can be made.

 

Your indebtedness to this account remains due and payable and we will be pursuing for the full repayment. Not through the courts though.... you'll need a signed CCA.

 

I trust this clarifies matters for you.

 

So they are basically saying that they did send an application form rather than a credit agreement, but they consider that to be satisfactory fulfilment of the CCA because they also sent me (albeit in a separate doc) the prescribed terms. Yes, that seems to be what they're saying.

 

The signed document they sent me does not contain any of the prescribed terms required by the CCA. To me, s61(1)(a) is quite clear - a properly executed agreement must CONTAIN the prescribed terms. Therefore they have not complied with my request? No... an Application is not a CCA.

 

Please (please) could somebody confirm that I have got this right, and I will respond to them.

 

The DCA on this (AIC) has been calling me on my mobile every day, despite me writing to them and telling them the account is in dispute and that i consider their continual calls to be harassment. I requested that they stop calling and should only write to me, but they've ignored me completely.

 

If you write again (rec. delivery) and state that all calls have been logged by time and date.... they usually run for the hills. Alternatively, you can just log all calls without telling them... a lot depends on how strong you feel in yourself.

 

I'm not too bothered as I can ignore any withheld numbers, but I just would like somebody to confirm what I think is true (that NatWest are still in non-compliance of my CCA request) and then I will know how to proceed.

 

Thank you!

 

[b8byd]

Thank you PriorityOne.

 

So no point in corresponding with NatWest further since they have given me their final response and they are not the ones chasing me. I will write them a short letter stating that I still consider the debt to be in dispute stating why, copy that to AIC and inform them i'll be logging any future calls by them. I'll also keep copies of everything they send as proof of their (now criminal) pursuance of the alleged debt.

 

Sound ok?

[PriorityOne]

Just keep it brief...

 

Something like...

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/2007.

 

To date however, your company remains in breach of my legal request for a Consumer Credit Agreement (Consumer Credit Act 1974); received by yourselves on xx/xx/2007. In fact, the only correspondence that I have received in response to this request has been an Application Form. Contrary to your understanding however, an Application Form does not comply with my request. I therefore do not acknowledge any debt to your company.

 

Please be advised that I will only communicate with you in writing. I have noted repeated attempts by companies involved in this matter to contact me by telephone over the past few weeks/months; whilst being in defiance of my instructions not to do so, whilst being in default of a legal request for information and some x weeks/months after receiving that request. These have been duly logged by time and date.

 

Please also be advised that until such times as my request is actioned, no payments will be forthcoming.

 

Yours faithfully/sincerely

 

 

I think that covers it. You may have to adapt the letter for the DCAs.... or just leave it as it is and send a copy to them anyway (rec. delivery).

 

 

[Curlyben]

Not bad P1, but how's this:

Re: my request under s78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me dated 21st June 2007, the contents of which are noted. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter, dated 26th April 2007. Upon receipt of the original request the specified account legally entered into disputed status.

 

My request remains outstanding. An application form does not constitute a true copy of a credit agreement and that which you sent doesn't even contain all the prescribed terms and is not 'properly executed'. The statements sent do not correspond to the amount stated in your earliest correspondence and therefore they do not satisfy the requirement to supply me with a statement of account.

 

As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

You had until 25th May 2007 to provide me with the true copy I requested. After that date you entered into default of my request. Whilst the account is in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agencies (or any third party).

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the data subject to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office.

 

The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation and if you fail to comply after a further 30 days you commit an offence. You entered into a default on 25th May 2007 and subsequently committed a criminal offence on 25th June 2007.

 

Therefore you have 7 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint, otherwise your conduct will be reported to the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Ombudsman and Trading Standards. Any investigation undertaken by them may affect your ability to offer credit in the future.

 

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Edit as needed.

[b8byd]

Nice one, thanks guys!

[oneofakind]

CB, that is one stonking letter !!

 

Well done.

 

[ODC]

Excellent letter my Simian friend but no blobs though sorry

[b8byd]

I think AIC have stopped harassing me for the time being. The last "urgent" answer phone message was on Wednesday (I sent the letter on Tuesday) but before that they had been calling every day at least once.