Claiming on a Business account? Lets join forces?

[gandolfi]

Thanks PM

It's quite a complex case, so I didn't want to completely take over

Cheers,

Gandolfi

[steven4064]

Gandolfi - thread moved - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/81525-gandolfi-natwest-9.html

[TheyrCriminals]

Hi Guys,

 

Bit of a result here. My friends just got an offer of settlement on a business account from HSBC Bank plc. Not a very good offer though - 25%.

 

TheyrCriminals

[steven4064]

That's interesting

[photoman]

Hi Guys,

 

Bit of a result here. My friends just got an offer of settlement on a business account from HSBC Bank plc. Not a very good offer though - 25%.

 

TheyrCriminals

 

Agree,

Yes interesting.

Also especially interesting in respect of the fact that this is very probably subject to an acceptance within the next 14 days ? (ie: prior to the announcement re historic terms... which although primarily focused toward personal accounts, will have some indication upon how Business accounts may be viewed).

 

Can you post some more info?

ie: What was the size of the claim?

Was it likely to to end up as a Small Claims Track case or go Fast or Multi?

How far had the claim gone? Was it just a filing of papers, or had AQ's been filed?

What was the total claim size for?

Was it just the charges, or was it the charges plus statutory 8%, or another rate?

What was the total claim, and what actual amount does the 25% work out at actually being?

 

Methinks there may be some uncertainty within their camp.... but it would be useful to know a bit more info before drawing any conclusions.

PM

Edited June 18, 2008 by photoman

[TheyrCriminals]

Hi Photoman,

 

I now have the details. Claim came to £2,500 with 8% statutory interest. They had got to the LBA stage, so obviously at that stage not entitled to interest. Their claim before interest was £2,000. They really don't know whether to accept or not!!!!!

 

TheyrCriminals

[photoman]

So, Does that mean they have been offered £500 ?

 

IMHO, if it were me, I would not accept.

I would then go ahead and file a claim (but perhaps wait to see what develops over coming weeks, and also think about what to now use for a POC. I gather from Stevens post earlier that CAG are working on some new approaches and POC's for Business claims, so watch this space).

 

For a £2000 claim, it is likely to end up Small claims, which would afford them the benefit of protection against costs. So, it is not in the Banks interest to see it progress to court, even if they thought they could win.

 

I think the Bank are also wary that there is still some basis for Business claims, and so rather than face the extra costs involved with litigation are trying to get this sorted before it goes to an actual claim, and so trying it on.

 

Of course, this is just my own view, and what I would probably do.

It is of course up to each individual to make their own choice.

[TheyrCriminals]

Hi Photoman,

 

Thanks for that. Yes the offer was just over £500. I guess, for the time being, they may as well wait for the judgement on historical terms and conditions as regards penalties and take it from there.

 

TheyrCriminals

[photoman]

As I said earlier, the timing of the offer may have been sneakily pitched in such a way to put pressure on to make a decision before the announcement on historical terms.

Get them to check on the deadline for acceptance.

Tell them to write and inform the solicitors that they will only correspond in writing, and not by phone.

Also, if they write to the solicitors (accepting, rejecting etc) tell them to head anything with:

"Without Prejudice, save as to costs"

[kashfat]

Hi guys, just wondering if anyone could help by telling me what to put on on a n244 to ask the judge to remove the stay for a business account?

[TheyrCriminals]

Hi Kashfat,

 

Most of the form is pretty self explanatory. The most important part is Section 10. If you wish to attach a witness statement then obviously tick the box and attach one. Also place a tick by 'evidence set out in the box below' and input the following statements.

 

The stay in relation to the Commercial Court litigation in OFT v Abbey National plc and others (Claim number 2007 Folio 1186) be lifted.

 

This claim relates to a business account and therefore the issues to be determined in OFT v Abbey National plc and others (Claim number 2007 Folio 1186) in relation to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and penalties in relation to consumer contracts are not applicable.

 

The issues to be determined in OFT v Abbey National plc and others (Claim number 2007 Folio 1186) concern the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulation 1999 and penalties in relation to consumer contracts. The issues under examination in this claim relate to a business bank account and therefore OFT v Abbey National plc and others is not relevant.

 

It may appear that paragraphs 2 and 3 are the same but it is important to include them both.

 

I hope this helps, feel free to ask me for any further help.

 

TheyrCriminals

[photoman]

Sunday 22nd June

 

Just noticed that everyones' avatar has been changed to include the following:

 

"Watch out there are claims touts about"

 

I presume this is in response to the admin becoming aware of a member or members trawling the forums and threads and then contacting other members offering to sort their claims out for a fee or %.

 

DO NOT BE TEMPTED !

 

These companies operate by offering to sort your claims out in return for a fee, or by getting you to agree to give them a percentage of anything they get back for you.

 

They more than likely do not have any more legal training or background than yourself, so cannot offer you anything more than you could simply do yourself (some have even been known to glean info from sites such as this).

 

Also, they do not have any special ability to lift stays, or speed up your claims, as claims submitted via these companies are still subject to the same rules.

 

Also, If you hand over your claim to them, in order to get their %, they will be more inclined to just accept much lower offers and settlements from the bank than you yourself would probably accept.

 

I have also heard of more unscrupulous acts by some of these companies such as marking up the court fees and costs, and asking for these upfront, and then the company just vanishing.

 

Sometimes people who use these companies "win" their cases, but after the % and costs, they just end up with nothing or very little.

 

Also, from a common sense point of view, do you really want to hand over all your confidential banking details to a stranger ?

 

My advice to anyone approached by someone offering such "services" is:

 

1/ Do not even respond to them, and then immediately report the member to admin. If you do not know who best to contact, then post up the offending members details.

2/ Do not give them any personal details, and do not give them any contact details.

 

 

PM

 

PS: These companies are also taking valuable funding away from sites such as this, and so reducing the ability of this site to help lots of others.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Photoman!

 

PS: These companies are also taking valuable funding away from sites such as this, and so reducing the ability of this site to help lots of others.

 

Absolutely. Hopefully the Site Admin Team are kicking them off as soon as they are spotted. Not seen anything myself but, if anyone has, just alert a Moderator or Site Helper and let them know the CAG Handle/Name that was involved.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[JOSH_IOU]

Ive fallen for this before hoping that it would be easier than sitting through hours of paper work. Having the dissabilities i have.

 

I am currently taking one of these companies to court and the solicitors Pitmans is helping them.

 

The judge in my view is being far to liberal with them.

 

Any way this is for a different thread.

[steven4064]

They more than likely do not have any more legal training or background than yourself, so cannot offer you anything more than you could simply do yourself (some have even been known to glean info from sites such as this).

One of them PMd a user and asked for a copy of his court bundle, even though claiming on another thread to be a fully qualified professional

[JOSH_IOU]

The court bundles are fre of charge and availableon cag.

 

But with traces of autism in your dissability one would be grateful of help as I was.

 

But you would expect some extra training other than cag wouldnt you.

 

I can use these guides but i cant complete it all at once.

 

And sometimes 1 month is not enough for me.

 

I do see where these firms can be useful if only they were reliable.

[TheyrCriminals]

Hi Guys,

 

Just following on from the above thread, my brother's friend used a claims management company, which I am not going to name, for his bank charge claim and he was very happy with their performance. When I enquired as to why he used them after I had told him about CAG (almost telling him off!) he did give me a valid reason really. I suppose we shouldn't forget that while most, if not all, of us on CAG are perfectly capabale of pursuing our own claims (with the help of CAG) there are some who have difficulty even writing/copying a letter let alone pursuing a claim through the courts. Also I have to admit that I used a claims management company to recover my PPI and overall I can't fault them, yes they took 25% of my money but the reason I used them was that I was just simply too busy and yes you can become that busy!!!

 

Don't get me wrong I will always advocate people pursue their own claims but claims management companies can be helpful to some I guess. But any claims management company that is trawling these threads to generate business is appalling tactics and needs to be stamped out!!

 

TheyrCriminals

[TideTurner]

Don't get me wrong I will always advocate people pursue their own claims but claims management companies can be helpful to some I guess. But any claims management company that is trawling these threads to generate business is appalling tactics and needs to be stamped out!!

 

TheyrCriminals

These people need to be identified, as do those who browse the site on behalf of the Banks.

 

All suspect posts / members should be reported.

[Northern Soul]

I have my own experience with a claims management company where i sent them details of a personal account, a credit card and a business account.

 

Out of the blue I have recieved a full and final offer from Abbey business, which I don't doubt was a result of the company sending them something, however the company seem to have little knowledge of what stage my claim is when I contact them, so I am going to accept Abbey's offer on the basis that it's less hassle to do so even though I won't get all the charges back. Also because I doubt that it will be worth the claims company's while to pursue me for the small amount of costs they may have encountered.

 

Abbey's full and final offer is about 75% and I'm quite happy to just accept that to avoid any further hassle.

[photoman]

Northern soul

I had already seen your thread, and subscribed (without commenting, as Zoot was giving you some very sound advice, and nothing much anyone else could really add) to see what unfolds.

 

As a caveat to my earlier post about the use of claims companies, I can understand (in line with Josh IOU's post) that there are some people who need to use such companies. Whether it be due to disability, being overwhelmed by the process, or simply too little time to deal with themselves.

Having said that, if someone needs to go down this route, then finding and choosing the right company must be very difficult, there are a lot of cowboys out there. Also, sometimes understanding the legalities and contractual commitments involved can be similar in complexity and as daunting as dealing with matters yourself.

For those who really feel this is a necessity then don't just jump into bed with some company that has contacted you, that is asking for trouble. Instead ask friends, family etc for recommendations based on experience they may have had regards similar issues, and then ensure they are a proper firm of licensed, accredited and insured professionals.

 

Anyhow, regards your own case, you really need to read the small print on the contract you signed with them (presuming there was one), and determine what level of control you retained over the case.

In my view, the contract may be considered as one of supplier and consumer. You are the client, and as such should be afforded the privilege of deciding how far the case is taken, and whether or not to accept any out of court offers.

You may find that your agreement is governed by the new 2008 consumer regulations, and that some of it may be of benefit to you ? Others will know better and advise you on this.

Although, not perhaps a serious breach of contract, they have not in my opinion behaved with the due care and attention warranted in such matters. They really should have been aware that it was a Business account claim for starters, and should also have kept you informed of their actions and any progress as they unfolded.

I think Zoot is right when she talked about the uncertain path to currently take with Business claims, and I think that the solicitors should be aware of and advising along similar lines, rather than pushing you along. After all, it is not their money, and I'm sure they have written in some way of recovering their own costs regardless, so they've nothing much to lose by pushing you along.

I would suggest you be upfront with the solicitors, not try to hide what is going on, but at the same time explain your concerns and desire to agree to the banks current offer.

Do not try to do things behind their back, as it could come up and bit you.

 

I suggest you get some advice from the more experienced members of CAG, and draft up a fax to send them. Try the softly softly reasonable approach first, and try to get them round to your way of thinking. You might find them more agreeable than you fear. If however, no agreement can be reached, then look into your legal rights and options.

 

PM

 

 

PS: If you do decide or find that court is inevitable, have you heard of something called "After the Event Insurance (ATE insurance).

It is a policy that can be taken out which will cover any court fees, costs etc should you end up losing your case.

If you do actually find yourself on the legal road through the solicitors, then ask them all about this first (and get others advice and opinions on it too).

If I recall properly, I think this type of insurance is only available if using a legal firm and is not available to litigants in person.

[Northern Soul]

I've been studying the 2008 consumer regulations as well as Zoot's informed posts and I think that I should accept the banks offer after i have told the claims company that I am going to do so.

 

I'll call them tomorrow and we'll see what they say, but the easiest option for me now is to just take the money so I'm not going to be coerced into anything else. Thanks to you lot I have plenty of ammunition should the worst come to the worst with the claims company, but i can't see that happening and they can't charge me for work they haven't done (especially when they don't seem to know what they've done).

 

Thanks for some more valuable advice.

[Northern Soul]

As per my own thread, i have now accepted Abbey's full and final offer and have contacted the claims company to tell them exactly that. They aren't too happy and have asked for 15% of my offer plus VAT as their fee, which they claim compares favourably with the "market rate".

 

I tried to explain that they were not using due care and attention, they failed to keep me informed of timescales and progress reports were non-existent and that pursuing a court action would not be in my best interest for a business account at this time. I have a few other arguments to back myself up, so I'm quite satisfied that any contract they believe they had with me was made null and void by their conduct.

 

I'll be starting a specific thread about this shortly. My own thread covers the story so far.

 

I will agree also that although I had a bad experience with one such company, there may well be reputable companies out there who can and will help.

 

To confirm the details of my business claim however, I have recieved a full and final offer for approximately 75% of the charges and I'm quite happy to accept that, it didn't take much to get that either I feel as no court proceeding had been started.

 

The offer stood for 28 days from the 13th of June. The letter cites the OFT case and states "It is possible that this case may inform the approach to be taken by banks in how they deal with business claims such as yours."

 

Hope this helps.

[TheyrCriminals]

Hi Northern Soul,

 

Could you post up which company you used or if you don't wish to put it on a post could you pm it to me please?

 

Many Thanks

 

TheyrCriminals

[Northern Soul]

I'm not prepared to do that at this time, however I am going to shortly once I have confirmed my position on how to defend myself from the fees they are seeking. I'm not trying to be unhelpful, I'm just cautious as you never know who could be reading this forum.

[kashfat]

just wana say thanks for that info, im gunna do session this weekend and get my n244 off, hopefully the judge will budge.