ME vs NATWEST + COBBETTS! A Claim going down the pan!!!

[leviathan]

Hi Guys,

 

Am suffering for the worst amount of anxiety with regard to my claim, OK so i sent of my in December sometime, the Particulars of the Claim were 4 point, which i got from Money Saving Expert. After quite some time I realised these points were simply not enough, the online form did not allow more than a certain number of characters! So restricting my POC, now, i'm stuffed since the Particulars are not good enough... perhaps, and i presummed that Cobbetts got the summery of bank charges from the several correspondences between me and the bank, they (Cobbetts) requested for more information

 

the letter said this dated 08 Jan 07

1. In your claim you state "the defendant has applied numerous charges to the Claimants account"

2. Please provide the following in support of your claim

 

2.1 To what account(s) (giving details of the account name, number and sort code) were the charges applied.

 

2.2 In relation to each charge, please clarify the following (a) is it the case of the Calimant the same should not have been charged? (b)If yes, please explain why the Claimant Contends that the same should not have been charged? ©If no; is the case of the Calimant that the same should not have been charged in this amount? (d) If yes; please explain why the Claimant contends that the same should have been charged in this amount and identified the sum the Claimant contends should have been charged. (e) if no; please state the Claimant's case.

 

3. In your claim you state that "the charges are unlawful and they are an extravagent penalty"

 

4. Please provide the following particulars in support of your claim:

4.1 Please specify the clause(s) pursuant to which the charges were applied

4.2 Please specify whether the charges applied were due tobreacj of contract by the claimant

4.3 Please identify in each case the particular breach of contract (by reference to appropaiet term of the contract) that the charged related to

 

Now all this is all good and well, and after recieving this form i recieved the n149 form from court which i gave in with an additional £100, i still haven't got around to sending Cobbetts this information, since some of the questions they're asking i have no answers for! If my Particulars of Claim had been stronger they would not have masked for this information.

 

Does anyone have any idea's on what i should do? I am panaking and fear that i may lose my case!

 

PS, do you think Natwest forwarded Cobbetts my letters with the dates of each charge? Or should i send it again? Should i send out a N244 form to highlight things that I have missed out and use the new method for the allocation questionaire which.

 

I am concerned since i have receieved no letter from Natwest wanting to settle or anything, they are simply not thrown by my case... :o

 

The sum i'm applying for is £2,800, which you;d this would make them wonder or panic and make me an offer. Should i drop the claim and start afresh?

[leviathan]

Also, i have not included the interest 8% interest charge in my court claim or the information that i have provided to there lawyer. Any suggestions whether o should do this now and write a letter to the court highlighting that the charges i have provided in my initial claim are without interests?

[Michael Browne]

PARTICULARS OF CLAIM

1. Between the dates of [insert dates of first and last charge] the Defendant applied numerous default charges to the Claimant’s bank account.

2. The charges applied constitute an unfair penalty under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations, which state: “A term is unfair if it requires any consumer who fails his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation”. The amount charged does not reflect the cost of the breach.

3. Under the law of penalties, the charges are an unlawful ‘extravagant’ penalty. Referring to the case of 1896, Wilson v Love, a charge is a penalty if it does not reflect an item’s true cost.

4. Under the County Courts Act 1984, the claimant is entitled to interest at a rate of 8% per annum from the date they were first deprived of the money to the date of this claim. This amounts to a total sum of [insert amount of interest], continuing to accrue at the statutory daily rate of 0.021% until judgment or earlier payment.

5. The Claimant therefore asks the court to enter judgment in their favour for the sum of [insert total charges] plus interest, amounting to a total of [insert total charges plus interest].

 

Is this what you used as your POC's? Which bits did you leave out?

 

Do I take it you have already submitted the AQ?

[leviathan]

More accurately put POC as follows

1. The Claimant Mr***** holds a bank account with the Defendant since **/**/** Between the dates of **/**/** - **/**/** the defendant applied numerous charges to the Claimants account

2. Under the law and penalties the charged are unlawful as they are an "extravagent" penalty. Referring back to the case of 1896, Wilson v Love, a charge is a penalty if it does not relate to the true cost of an item.

3. As outlined in the County Courts Act 1984, the claimnat is entitles to interest at the rate of 8% per annum from the date they were first deprived of the money to the date of this claim. This amount to a total sum of £***.**, continuing to accrue at a statutory rate until judgement or earlier payment, the daily rate being 0.021%

4. The Claimant therefore asks the court to enter judgement in favour for the sum of £*,*** plus interest, amounting to a total of £*,***

 

These were my particulars, after seeing some of the particulars, these seem pathetic, but it ws all the space the form would allow. I haven't added anything else to the claim to make it water tight!

 

What to do????

[Michael Browne]

I suggest you amend your claim as follows:

 

N244 AMENDMENT

With regard to the N244 -

 

Top left hand box:

1. Tick c), without a hearing

Leave the rest blank

 

Part A

intend to apply for an order that:

amends my particulars of claim

 

because:

my particulars of claim did not state the statutory provisions on which my claim relies, and did not include a schedule of charges

 

Part B

Tick evidence in part c

 

Part C

Please find attached to this application my proposed new particulars of claim, amended to include the statutory provisions on which my claim relies , as well as a schedule of the amount claimed in respect of penalty charges levied by the defendant"

Send N244 + 3 N1 + 3 schedules + £35 fee to the court. They will send 2 back, 1 of which you serve/send to the defendants and confirm to the court that you have done so.

 

N1 PARTICULARS OF CLAIM

 

1. The Claimant [has] [had] an account (XXXX Account No) with the Defendant which was opened on or around Date [and closed on or around date]

 

2. During the period in which the Account [has been] [was] operating the Defendant debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

 

3. A list of the charges applied is attached to these particulars of claim.

 

4. The Claimant contends that:

a) The charges debited to the Account are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant; exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

b) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Contract Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999), the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and the common law.

 

5. Alternatively, if the charges are a fee for a service, then they must be reasonable under S.15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.

 

6. Accordingly the Claimant claims:

a) the return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £XXXX and any interest charged thereon;

b) Court costs;

c) Interest pursuant to S.69 County Courts Act 1984 of 8% as set out on the attached list of charges - £xxx [enter interest total at date of claim] continuing at 8% until judgement or settlement at a daily rate of £0.xx.

 

 

For the schedule of charges use the Simple S/S here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/182-interest-calculation-spreadsheets.html

and visual guide here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclays-bcard-woolwich-successes/7226-maisielou-barclays.html#post50088

 

Overwrite the existing examples type of charge, amount and date.

 

The days since and 8% will be calculated automatically

 

Having completed the s/s, save it. You will need to produce one as of the date you filed. So click on the time in your taskbar and reset the date to the date you filed at court. Open the s/s and print off. Reset the date.

 

 

N1 Claims form in .PDF format with form filling

N1 Claims form in .PDF format with form filling

 

N244 - application notice

Form N244 - application notice

[leviathan]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE HELP! I am so thrilled, there is a way out of this mess, or is there? I wanted to ask a final question before i get this all in the post. With the Sum total, do I add on all the money that i've contributed to that case as well as the unfair bank charges?

[Michael Browne]

I assume you mean on the N1

 

Value:

Bank charges - £XXXX

Data Protection Act Fee - £XX (if claimed)

S69 8% Interest - £XXX

Total of - £XXXX

Plus daily interest at 8% of £0.XXp from the date of issue until settlement.

 

 

 

Amount claimed: Charges (+ Data Protection Act Fee if claimed) - £XXX

Court fees: £XXX

Sols costs; None

 

 

Human Rights: No

[leviathan]

Could i ask what the s69 interest is???

[leviathan]

Plus daily interest at 8% of £0.XXp from the date of issue until settlement.

 

Is this

Bank Charges + Interest + Court Fee + Money Claim Fee + Statement Fee = Total

 

Then the total calculated by the number of days it takes the bank to forward the payment?

[leviathan]

Also, would the court fee be the Money claim charge + the court charge?

 

Many thanks! Am trying to get these forms off asap, since this has been hanging over me for quite some time now.

 

L

[saint-luco]

no just the bank charges, dont dd interest to your fees

[saint-luco]

i think ive got you now

you cant claim back the £35 for altering your poc

so it should read something like this

 

charges £****

interest under s.69 county courts act 184 £****

court fee £120

 

total £***

 

plus interest pursuant to S.69 county courts act 1984 from the ate of issue to date of judgement/ settlement a £*** per day OR at such a rate and for such periods as the cort deems just

 

hope that helps

[leviathan]

Thanks for the info, So am currently filling in the N1 form, so in the "amount claimed" put just the total bank charges and nothing else no interest from the day or nothing... Sorry, my claims in a real muddle, that's all trying to get it straight

[leviathan]

Understand that, but at which point do i include the interested charged since the bank has had the money to the day?

[leviathan]

Also, do you not get the money claim and court fee money back which both amount to £220, i've included this in my schedual. SO i change the time on my laptop and open the spreadsheet which will have different interest figures on it. then send it of?

[saint-luco]

6. Accordingly the Claimant claims:

a) the return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £XXXX(enter total charges) and any interest charged thereon;

b) Court costs;

c) Interest pursuant to S.69 County Courts Act 1984 of 8% as set out on the attached list of charges - £xxx [enter interest total at date of claim] continuing at 8% until judgement or settlement at a daily rate of £0.xx.

 

dont think you'll go wrong with yhis

[Michael Browne]

It's in your POC's:

6. Accordingly the Claimant claims:

a) the return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £XXXX and any interest charged thereon;

b) Court costs;

c) Interest pursuant to S.69 County Courts Act 1984 of 8% as set out on the attached list of charges - £xxx [enter interest total at original date of claim] continuing at 8% until judgement or settlement at a daily rate of £0.xx.

 

[leviathan]

Ahhh, shocks guys... i really appreciate your help!

[saint-luco]

you get the money claim fee back in 6b above

dont add it to your spreadsheet that is just for bank charges

because you had to pay £35 to change your poc that is non returnable,

you can claim your aq fee as well

so yes court costs £220

[leviathan]

The amount that i'm claiming differs from my initial claim in Dec, will that cause a problem, the reason why it differs is beacause my calculation of the the interest was incorrect. Will this cause a problem?

[leviathan]

Also, where it asks for brief of claim on the 1st page what would be the ideal title for the claim (presumming it is a title there asking for) that i should put in there

[saint-luco]

i put

money claim for return of penalty charges applied to the claimants bank account by the defendant.

on your other question, i understand you are paying to change your claim, so IMHO surely you can change the amount claimed if it was wrong in the fist place. but thats my opinion and someone else will probably know different

[leviathan]

How would i go about working out the daily interest charge that i need to include in section 6b, towards the end???

[leviathan]

Gosh, i've been on this all day, have three copes of the N244 ready to go, 3 scheduals to go and am trying to work out the interest per day charge, with very little luck. Is it against the back charges you work out the interest or the total amount, including all court fee? So it's 8% of the total amount that would fill in that section?

 

Any ideas anyone?

[Michael Browne]

have three copes of the N244 ready to go, 3 scheduals to go

It's 1 N244 + 3 N1 + 3 schedules

 

Is it against the back charges you work out the interest or the total amount, including all court fee?

Just the charges ( no interest, no court fees) x 0.00022

 

eg £495 x 0.00022= £0.11p