Wallers/Northern Rock vs Me

[Cristal]

this is my first post, so i hope i'm doing the right thing.

 

I've defaulted on an unsecured loan (£25,000) with Northern Rock. I maintained contact with them and made random payments -£100 as recently as Jan. 22nd. Last Friday (Feb 9th), I rec'd a letter from Wallers Solicitors, dated Jan 30th, stating I had 7 days from that date to reply with a payment proposal to them. When I called them to point out that the 7 day period had expired, they advised me to take my complaint to Royal Mail (!). On Monday, Feb 12th, I rec'd a 'Claim Form' from Gateshead County Court for the amount of £35,914.98 (interest, court costs, etc.) and a defence and counterclaim form. i immediately filed for an extension to 28 days (I had to tick the box saying 'I defend part of this claim' before the court would process it) and sent a fax to Wallers, complaining about the deliberate late delivery of their letter. I believe that Northern Rock want to put a lien on my property and I would like to oppose that.

 

My question is: should I send Wallers a CCA letter or not bother? Should I attempt to negotiate directly with Wallers for a payment of £25 per month? Or should I let it go to court, providing I can write a strong enough defence to oppose a lien on my property? I would like the debt to remain unsecured.

[lookinforinfo]

Cristal-I don't suppose you kept the envelope their letter came in, as the

postmark would show if it was the mail that was at fault or Wallers held on to it.

 

When did you take out the loan as it is only recently that your loan would come under the definition of being a regulated agreement under the Consumer Credit Act at £25000.

Any chance you still have a copy of the original agreement yourself?

 

Do you think you have much in the way of unlawful charges?

In the light of a looming Court case, suggest you send an sar to Northern

Rock.

 

Can't see the offer of £25 pm making them change their mind taking into

account the size of the debt. Can you see any light at the end of the tunnel

regarding your financial position?

[Cristal]

Lookinforinfo, thanks so much for your response!

 

I stupidly recylced the Wallers' envelope. The loan was taken out in April 2005 and I'm sure I can locate the original agreement. I think all the charges will be legit.

 

Wiil an SAR request delay things re court? I thought I had to ask for a CCA before asking for a SAR.

 

Hmmm...no real light at the end of the tunnel. Am waiting for projects to be greenlit. Could happen this week or next month. Or not! When completing the income/expenditure form for court, is it better to be pessimistic or optimistic? would Wallers or the court possibly accept a 3 month arrangement of £25 - £50 per month with a promise to resume normal payments (£336 p.m.) at the end of this period? should I write a letter to the court explaining that I have not avoided No. Rock and have made interim payments?

 

On other debt collection matters (and please tell me if this should be a separate post/thread).......in the last week I have sent CCA letters to 1st Credit, Newman Debt Collection, Triton Credit Services, Eversheds, Viking Collection Services and Direct Legal & Collections. The harassing phone calls have stopped and I have only received one written response - from 'Hillesden Securities' on behalf of Direct Legal & Collections (they share the same co. registration no.), acknowledging receipt of my letter and saying that they will be able to supply a 'true' copy of the original agreement if they can't send me a 'copy' and promised to send me an update in 21 days if not before. This feels like a stalling tactic. Also, at what point do I send an SAR to the above debt collectors?

 

I cannot tell you how grateful I am for your advice around this legal minefield!! And sorry if I'm mixing up topics!

[lookinforinfo]

Wow you don't do things by halves.

 

Ok lets start with the CCAs and work from there. Despite what they say about

when they will send you a copy of the original agreement, by law they have

twelve working days plus two more days to allow for the mail delivery

in order to comply. If they are later than that they are in default and cannot pursue you for the debt until they produce the goods.

 

If they still haven't managed to send you the documents within a further month of those fourteen days [and some of them may not] then they have

committed a criminal offence, face a fine of up to £2500 and will have to apply to the Court in order to get permission to pursue you for the debt.

 

If you are paying any of those debt collectors at the moment [the ones you have sent the ccas to], stop paying them and save the money to pay

Northern Rock. It is going to take at least a month normally for those guys to get themselves in gear, so may give yo a chance to redirect some funds to NR

without running the risk of Court action from them.

 

Next-do not be optimistic or pessimistic in completing the income/ expenditure

form, be honest. Tell the Court how it actually is, not how you would like it to be, or how you hope it will be. Also be careful making arrangements three

months ahead of paying £326 pm if it depends on you getting a well enough

paid job in the meantime. If you don't get one, it could cause problems.

For instance, the Court might not make an immediate order to secure the

loan on your property, but make it a condition that should you not adhere to the payments you have agreed, that NR can then apply to go for a charge on

your house.

 

Now on to the question of charges. In the light of your missed payments, Nr

will have written to you probably on several occasions, and theses companies

usually charge you around £25 for that dubious privilege. That charge, because it does not represent the cost of sending that letter is an unlawful

charge, despite the fact that theri Terms and Conditions appear to authorise

them. Their T&Cs do not out rank the Law, and the law says they can't do it.

See the FAQs and the step by step guide on the first page of the forum for

the explanation, and also how to reclaim those costs.

 

Send the sar to NR in order to find out how much you owe-make sure it

coincides with the claim through the Court-it would help if it didn't. Also you

will get statements of how much they have charged you. The more unlawful

charges you have on there the better, since it means that your apparent arrears are not as bad as they are making out. And the closer you can get the arrears to the actual amount you should owe at present, the less likely

the Judge will be to make a charging order on your house. And the fact that

you are keeping in touch with NR also helps with the Court.

 

I imagine the only way you can stop the Court proceedings is to bring your

payments up to date and the Court cannot stop proceedings without a very

strong reason from you. A stay of twenty nine days is probably as good as you could expect. It would be a help if you could cobble together some thing

like a reasonable payment to give during the Court hearing.

 

On a separate note, you would normally send a cca request to a company that has bought your debt-mainly to prove that they are entitled to collect it.

 

You normally send the original creditor the sar because they are the ones

who will hold most data on you, and will have a complete record of your payment history so you can work out how much you actually owe.

 

Sorry it has been such a long post-hope you haven't falle asleep in the middle.

[Cristal]

First of all, endless thanks for your extremely comprehensive response!! You are the only one to answer my post but, frankly, your replies are so informative and thorough, should I care?!

 

Okay, I'll sit out the CCAs - good to know it's 'working days' not just 'days'. For the record, Newman Debt Collection Agents are absolutely vile. I'm sure their phone threats and bullying are illegal. I am presuming that, in the event that all my debt collectors cannot prove they own the debt, the debt is returned to the original creditor for collection - or does it just waste away?

 

Re No. Rock, my questions are:

 

1. Will an SAR aggravate them and make them less likely to negoatiate with me? I'm assuming I should send the SAR to No Rock and should I cc Wallers Solicitors?

2. Since there is a time limit on a SAR and if No Rock exceeds that limit, will the court case automatically be postponed?

3. Since my circumstances could change (for the better, I hope),is it better to wait as close to the court date as possible to file my response form?

4. As it is unlikely I will be able to clear the arrears, should I make an interim payment now or is it better tomention an amount in my court response?

5. Is there ANY chance I can negotiate w/Wallers and avoid court altogether? (I understand from a Payplan advisor that No Rock is always keen to bring matters to court).

 

I'm sure reclaiming my NatWest current account charges belongs in another section - I have a huge overdraft with them, but have totalled up £1,000s in charges. Will I destabilise my relationship with them if I apply for a refund now? Maybe I should wait?

 

As you can imagine, I'm staring down the barrel of bankruptcy and am desperate not to go that route. Your in depth and considered advice is a source of great support. Heartfelt thanks.

[lookinforinfo]

Okay, I'll sit out the CCAs - good to know it's 'working days' not just 'days'. For the record, Newman Debt Collection Agents are absolutely vile. I'm sure their phone threats and bullying are illegal. I am presuming that, in the event that all my debt collectors cannot prove they own the debt, the debt is returned to the original creditor for collection - or does it just waste away?

Yes their threats are unlawful, which is one reason why you should not talk on the phone to them. It may be hard to get used to at first, but whenever they do call, slam the phone down without talking to them. It

may take them a little while to work out since they are not blessed with much in the way of grey matter. But when you realise how much it hacks them off,

it can become quite fun. And of course, if you have sent them a CCA request, they should not be ringing you till they have complied.

 

Re No. Rock, my questions are:

 

1. Will an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) aggravate them and make them less likely to negoatiate with me? I'm assuming I should send the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to No Rock and should I cc Wallers Solicitors?

They are taking you to Court so I assume you have already aggravated them. You could cc Wallers, but I am sure that NR will do that

anyway. But you could point out that the account is in dispute and include

a request on how to prevent the case from proceeding.

2. Since there is a time limit on a SAR and if No Rock exceeds that limit, will the court case automatically be postponed?

No you will have to tell the Court that they are holding you up.

Though there shouldn't be too much time required as the account is fairly recent.

3. Since my circumstances could change (for the better, I hope),is it better to wait as close to the court date as possible to file my response form?

There is a time frame with the Court documents that you will have to comply with. If good news arrives in time, so much the better.

4. As it is unlikely I will be able to clear the arrears, should I make an interim payment now or is it better to mention an amount in my court response?

It is probably better to save up as much as you can to offer in Court. This avoids them missing one of your payments and causing confusion

in Court as to how much is owed.

5. Is there ANY chance I can negotiate w/Wallers and avoid court altogether? (I understand from a Payplan advisor that No Rock is always keen to bring matters to court).

You could ask along with your cc to them, what is the minimum

they would accept in payment to prevent the Court case.

 

I'm sure reclaiming my NatWest current account charges belongs in another section - I have a huge overdraft with them, but have totalled up £1,000s in charges. Will I destabilise my relationship with them if I apply for a refund now? Maybe I should wait?

Whenever you ask for a refund is going to hack them off. So do

it whenever it suits you-but make sure you have a parachute account

beforehand prior to starting.

 

As you can imagine, I'm staring down the barrel of bankruptcy and am desperate not to go that route. Your in depth and considered advice is a source of great support. Heartfelt thanks.

 

 

Keep your fingers crossed with regards to your CCA requests

and take it from there. Good luck

[Cristal]

A GAZILLION thanks.....will keep you posted.

 

By the way, the CCA letters to the various debt collectors seemed to have stopped the phone calls. the few calls that have come thru since the letters (which stipulate all contact must be in writing) have been welcomed by me saying 'I'm recording this call' - at which point THEY hang up on ME! V. rewarding. If pushed, I tell them I'm reporting them to the police for harassment - which also prompts them to hang up. Except for one call from Viking, it's been radio silence ever since.

 

Again, huge thanks!!

[Stornoway]

About 18 months ago, I fell three months in arrears with NR personal loan following a period of illness, hospitalisation and a family bereavement which meant I "took my eye off the ball". They took me to court but when I received the court docs I telephoned them and offered to pay the full arrears there and then. They refused to take my cash and were determined to take it to court to get a charge on my house. After perservering with daily phone calls and letters they finally (day before court) agreed to stop the court action and never even took a payment for the arrears. It was one of the most stressful periods of my life. I think my advice would be to keep in regular contact with them and try your hardest to get the court action stopped. One thing they did say to me was that whilst they were stopping the action as there was a default they could restart the action at any time if I missed another payment.

[Cristal]

Yikes!!! Thanks for your post!! I had a feeling No Rock would be impossible. Did you communicate with NR directly or with Wallers? I am going to go down the route suggested by Lookinforinfo - an SAR, etc. Did you do any of that? I'm terrified of NR putting a lien on the property.

 

Again, many thanks for your input.

[Stornoway]

Yikes!!! Thanks for your post!! I had a feeling No Rock would be impossible. Did you communicate with NR directly or with Wallers? I am going to go down the route suggested by Lookinforinfo - an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request), etc. Did you do any of that? I'm terrified of NR putting a lien on the property.

 

Again, many thanks for your input.

It was different lawyers but I did speak to both the lawyers and NR. I sent long letters to the Head of the Collections department and phoned regularly. At one point, I offered to the lawyers to give them a legal charge over the house in respect of the personal loan as they had my mortgage anyway and the Loan to Value was low - in my view this far preferable to getting a CCJ. The lawyers initially said they were interested in this but then backtracked - it might be an option for you to explore. I went as far as asking my lawyers to look at creating the legal charge etc to take this forward and one thing they did say was that the way the original mortgage docs and loan docs were put together, NR had the right in a default situation to look to the existing legal charge to cover the personal loan as well (the charge was for "all sums"). If you have a "Together" mortgage and loan then this might be something you can point out / offer to them. They were very hard work in the whole situation but i got there in the end. One other thing that went in my favour was that I had a 5 year payment history with them during which I had never missed a payment.

[Cristal]

Thanks! My mortgage is with the Halifax but maybe I could suggest a secured loan situation - i just don't want to get into a situation where there's a lien/CCJ and huge interest accruing at the same time. Your story certainly helps and I fully intend to persevere! Again, your experience is invaluable!

[Stornoway]

Good luck, I know the stress you are under and really hope it works out for you. Shout if you need help.

[Cristal]

V. reassuring to know you've been thru this and come out the other side. Will keep you posted! Thanks so much for your support.

[gizmo111]

and a defence and counterclaim form.

 

What are they actually counterclaiming for?

I notice from your other thread that you also have another large debt with Amex. Realistically with these 2 debts totalling nearly £50k and you have mentioned others what are your chances of paying these off.

What sort of equity do you have in your property?

What is your total debt?

[Cristal]

Again, not sure if I'm doing this right!

Got a crummy reply from Wallers. It goes on validating its delayed posting of the original letter to me, etc. You would think something this important would be send by registered post!

Their client is willing to 'at least consider firm proposals to compromise the litigation' but they are unlikely to accept anything less than a 'susbstantial reduction in arrears' and ongoing payments of the original agreed monthly payments. 'The purpose of this litigation is to charge your property with the value of the outstanding loan by a charging order'. They also criticise 'the unfortunate tenor you have adopted'! I have until March 9th to file my Defence.

So, should I still send them an SAR? Or attempt to negotiate directly with them? STORNOWAY had a similar experience - did you see his/her posts to me?

Also - again sorry if this is the wrong place for this (I've also posted the below post on a Newman Debt Collection Agents thread):

I'm in an awful situation w/Newmans. My original debt was w/Amex for £13,125. Ii missed a few payments and it was really quickly turned over to Newman in December. They've added a £2,362 collection fee!!! And harrassed me over the phone in the most abusive and terrifying way. I paid them £500. Then I found this site!! I sent them a CCA, which unfortunately they've complied with! Newman sent a copy of the orignal agreement (but no statements, as requested) but credited the £1 postal order on my account. Newman also enlcosed a copy of a letter I wrote to Amex in Nov 2006, stating I was experiencing financial difficulties, hoped it was a financial 'blip' and offered £20 per month in the hope that things would stabilise in January. Maybe it was stupid to write the letter but it seemed like a god idea at the time. Anyway, their letter today says I've never queried the debt in any telephone conversations with them, I've informed them of my efforts to raise money to clear the debt (I have tried to get a loan but as one of Newman's henchmen pointed on, my credit is terrible and I'll never get it). They claim I am merely delaying repayment of the debt. To avoid further action, they require a payment of £765 this month and every month hereafter. They have promised to stop calling and have.

 

So, what to do now? Clearly I can't aford £765 a month.

Do they have to provide me with statements to comply with the CCA?

Is there any point in sending a SAR letter? They were horrid and threatening in their calls to me.

Is there any mileage in the fact that they are incorrectly registered at Companies House? Can this be reported to OFT?

If none of the above helps, should I appeal to Amex to intervene?

 

They are disgusting!

 

Thanking you in adavance and huge apologies for the density of this post!

[Cristal]

What are they actually counterclaiming for?

I notice from your other thread that you also have another large debt with Amex. Realistically with these 2 debts totalling nearly £50k and you have mentioned others what are your chances of paying these off.

What sort of equity do you have in your property?

What is your total debt?

 

There is no quity left in my property but I am desperate to stay here (it's been my home for 25 years). I have about £125,000 in unsecured debt, mortgage of £505,000 and a secured loan of about £95,000. I'm definitely teetering on the edge but my circumstances could improve at any time. So - paying off my debts in the short term is unlikely, but I may be in a position soon to resume monthly payments. I am determined to stave off bankruptcy if possible. Terribly stressful!! thanks for your interest!

[Cristal]

PS

 

Sorry, gizmo111 - No Rock isn't counterclaiming, just claiming agaisnt me.

[gizmo111]

I have about £125,000 in unsecured debt, mortgage of £505,000 and a secured loan of about £95,000. I'm definitely teetering on the edge QUOTE]

 

Are the mortgage and secured loan up to date?

 

but my circumstances could improve at any time. So - paying off my debts in the short term is unlikely, but I may be in a position soon to resume monthly payments. I am determined to stave off bankruptcy if possible.

 

have you a regualr income, and is it worth the stress. You are obvioulsy aware that you will end up with charging orders and then neg equity.

 

This is a lot off stress you have here just to keep a roof over your head.

 

Terribly stressful!! thanks for your interest

 

You are welcome to any help I can offer - but jst can't see a way through this that would make it worth it to you.

[Cristal]

Yes, I agree about the stress but this is my home and my office. And am emotionally attached. The mortgage and secured loans are not up to date but I am in constant contact with both. They are only now starting to make noises. Am desperately trying to stop liens on the property but staying here vs. renting? Might as well pay the 'rent' here. I think? I do not have a steady income, but it arrives in 'bunches'. I cannot predict when the next 'bunch' will arrive. I would be willing to take out a loan to bridge myself until then, but think it is unlikely I could find one with my credit rating. I would hate to go bankrupt, lose my home and then find, a month or two later, that it was avoidable. So, I intend to do whatever it takes to postpone and hopefully avoid it. Thank you soooo much for your help!

[Stornoway]

Again, not sure if I'm doing this right!

Got a crummy reply from Wallers. It goes on validating its delayed posting of the original letter to me, etc. You would think something this important would be send by registered post!

Their client is willing to 'at least consider firm proposals to compromise the litigation' but they are unlikely to accept anything less than a 'susbstantial reduction in arrears' and ongoing payments of the original agreed monthly payments. 'The purpose of this litigation is to charge your property with the value of the outstanding loan by a charging order'. They also criticise 'the unfortunate tenor you have adopted'! I have until March 9th to file my Defence.

So, should I still send them an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)? Or attempt to negotiate directly with them? STORNOWAY had a similar experience - did you see his/her posts to me?

Also - again sorry if this is the wrong place for this (I've also posted the below post on a Newman Debt Collection Agents thread):

I'm in an awful situation w/Newmans. My original debt was w/Amex for £13,125. Ii missed a few payments and it was really quickly turned over to Newman in December. They've added a £2,362 collection fee!!! And harrassed me over the phone in the most abusive and terrifying way. I paid them £500. Then I found this site!! I sent them a CCA, which unfortunately they've complied with! Newman sent a copy of the orignal agreement (but no statements, as requested) but credited the £1 postal order on my account. Newman also enlcosed a copy of a letter I wrote to Amex in Nov 2006, stating I was experiencing financial difficulties, hoped it was a financial 'blip' and offered £20 per month in the hope that things would stabilise in January. Maybe it was stupid to write the letter but it seemed like a god idea at the time. Anyway, their letter today says I've never queried the debt in any telephone conversations with them, I've informed them of my efforts to raise money to clear the debt (I have tried to get a loan but as one of Newman's henchmen pointed on, my credit is terrible and I'll never get it). They claim I am merely delaying repayment of the debt. To avoid further action, they require a payment of £765 this month and every month hereafter. They have promised to stop calling and have.

 

So, what to do now? Clearly I can't aford £765 a month.

Do they have to provide me with statements to comply with the CCA?

Is there any point in sending a SAR letter? They were horrid and threatening in their calls to me.

Is there any mileage in the fact that they are incorrectly registered at Companies House? Can this be reported to OFT?

If none of the above helps, should I appeal to Amex to intervene?

 

They are disgusting!

 

Thanking you in adavance and huge apologies for the density of this post!

I have also been helping a friend who has debt with amex which is in arrears and newman are involved, they are very aggressive but;

1. the 2k+ collection fee is a default charge which is unlawful. We wrote 2 letters pointing this out and amex agreed to waive it.

2. send a SAR to amex and tell them that you regard the account as being in dispute due to application of unlawful bank charges and accordingly under the UK Banking Code they cant enforce the debt until matters are resolved. Highlight that Newman should also not be contacting you whilst in dispute. This should give you some breathing space.

3. you can try point 2 on Northern Rock as well but suspect they are too far down the road for this to work.

[gizmo111]

All these things would still be valid - but cristal has huge debts which need to be addressed, and getting a stay on one isn't going to help the other.

 

I have also been helping a friend who has debt with amex which is in arrears and newman are involved, they are very aggressive but;

1. the 2k+ collection fee is a default charge which is unlawful. We wrote 2 letters pointing this out and amex agreed to waive it.

2. send a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to amex and tell them that you regard the account as being in dispute due to application of unlawful bank charges and accordingly under the UK Banking Code they cant enforce the debt until matters are resolved. Highlight that Newman should also not be contacting you whilst in dispute. This should give you some breathing space.

3. you can try point 2 on Northern Rock as well but suspect they are too far down the road for this to work.

[Cristal]

thank you so much.......'Zubo' has also been helpful on another thread. I will send a SAR, presumably to Newman...or do you suggest Amex instead? Newman are just the pits......I'm sure those without backup and support could be tipped into a scary psychological state because of their brutal and relenteless harassment. again, many, many thanks!

[Stornoway]

All these things would still be valid - but cristal has huge debts which need to be addressed, and getting a stay on one isn't going to help the other.

I dont disagree.

[Stornoway]

thank you so much.......'Zubo' has also been helpful on another thread. I will send a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request), presumably to Newman...or do you suggest Amex instead? Newman are just the pits......I'm sure those without backup and support could be tipped into a scary psychological state because of their brutal and relenteless harassment. again, many, many thanks!

I would send to Amex.

[Cristal]

But it is entirely possible that I will soon be in a position to maintain the debt. i know it's not ideal, but I prefer to deter bankruptcy rather than embrace it. But I acknowledge it may be inevitable.