muggins73 v Halifax

[muggins73]

Thanks again.

 

it appears I have already managed to track down most of the information you've given, the problem being that most of these threads (esp. Bankfodders and Bongs' threads) are sooo long winded, my head starts to hurt after a while.....information overload me thinks!!!

 

Two questions, if I may, and the first comes after something I've read in another thread, should I make one claim 2001 - 2007 and another 1990 - 2000 or just combine the lot?

 

What exactly does compounded mean?

 

If you could shed some light I can get cracking?

[progenic7]

hi muggins,

 

ok two questions back to you first.

 

firstly is the account still live ?

secondly if yes, are you in a position to close it ?

 

reason i ask that is important because as im sure you know, one of the sneaky ways the banks try and avoid LA issues and CI issues, is to sneakily pay the "fees" part of the claim into the live account hours before the hearing. So when you walk into court the defences barrister declares that all 100% of the fees have been paid into the account and the only thing left to argue is the contractual interest....pretty hard on its own

of course they do the same with the limitation act too, pay the post 6 year fees into the account only leaving you with the pre six year fees to argue.

 

my point is really that its very important to try and close the account down before proceeding with the court action, that way the only way they can pay is by cheque (which you can decline easily). right then that bit out of the way

 

would i split it into pre and post 6 year...No is the simple answer

 

but let me explain further to clarify, if your worried about the CI bumping the whole claim as one sky high (which personally i dont think id worry too much about) then if you were going to split it, i would make sure without a doubt that atleast 6 months of post 6 years charges were bundled in with the pre 6 year charges.

 

1990 - Jan 2002 (with CI)

 

then

 

feb 2002 - 2007 (with CI)

 

that way if the defence think they can strike out the whole claim because the entire claim may be time barred, they acnt because some of the charges are not time barred, so the old (oh S**T avoid court like the plague) comes into play.

If the defence are in any doubt about whether or not they may have to prove the true costs, the in my opinion they will pay anything to avoid this chance (even if its remote)

So keep a few months of current charges in claim 1 and you should be fine. Dont back down, they will pay you CI if you have your poker face set (trust me they will)

thing is most people bottle it at the last minute thinking they may lose, but honestly the banks would not risk having to prove these costs in court, no way

 

but having said all that i would actually consider opting for option 1 and lumping the whole claim together and just going for it, CI the lot. i would still be pushing for small claims track though, but if it goes fast or multi dont worry as you are going to win

 

IMHO

 

Johnny

[muggins73]

firstly is the account still live ?

secondly if yes, are you in a position to close it ? Johnny

 

Answer is no, the account was closed back in 2004, which is one of the reasons I'm opting to claim back more than 6 years.

 

The totals tally up like so...

 

1993 - 2000 Total penalties charged £835.00 Interest on penalties £101.38 (not CI)

2001 - 2004 £204.00 + £6.89

 

So you can see why I'm interested in doing it this way, it does seem to make quite a difference don't it;)

 

Is there any chance you can briefly explain what 'compounded' means in laymens terms please? (as I seem to understand these a bit better!!!) Still very nervous on claim CI as I'm not entirely sure what it all entails. I need to know what it is I'm doing in order to argue my point across to Mr judgy. I've got as far as downloading vampiressess spreadsheet from google as I don't even know how to go about adapting the interest spreadsheet in the templates section to suit (as I am unable to open Mindzais one). There are brief notes on CI but nothing answers this persific question.

[muggins73]

Still very nervous on claim CI as I'm not entirely sure what it all entails. I need to know what it is I'm doing in order to argue my point across to Mr judgy. I've got as far as downloading vampiressess spreadsheet from google as I don't even know how to go about adapting the interest spreadsheet in the templates section to suit (as I am unable to open Mindzais one). There are brief notes on CI but nothing answers this persific question.

 

I am unable to open the CI spreadsheet Mindzai has provided us with nor am I able to download vampiressess contractual compound interst s/s from google, as some of the forulae is missing:cry:

 

Is there anyone who could send an excel version to me via pm?

 

Also, can someone clarify whether or not I can actually claim CI as apparently I did not have an overdraft on the cardcash account (I'm still waiting for Halifax to confirm this in writing:evil:)

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[progenic7]

Muggins

 

firstly......breath and relax

 

ok componded interest (im not an expert i must admit) as i understand is like this....the banks charged us fees and then they also charges interest on those fees, so for example they charged you a £40 fee, by the time you actually paid it back you paid the £40 + another £3 interest (that was purely for example it may not be correct)

so we are claiming back the "fees" and the interest they took from us, in this case £43, then we are charging them interest at the same rate they charged us (for example 23%), and the compounded bit is where we charge interest on the interest (because they had our money and we couldnt therefore use it or make more money with it)

i hope that makes sense, its a little complicated but i feel its wholly justified and only fair.

But at the end of the day you have nothing at all to lose, on your N1 court claim form i would put the CI at unauthorised rate and then in the alternative use the authorised rate, then in the alternative use the standard rate, then in the alternative use s69 8% interest, so that gives the judge every possible option available to him.

And in the very worst case scenario all he will say is that he doesnt buy the CI argument and hes only awarding you s69 8% interest.

But unless you ask you will only ever have No, so ask and you may be surprised

 

Muggins dont start panicking now, just take it easy, fill out your spredsheets (honestly go with CI you wont regret it), check all your papers are in order, and for gods sake dont rush, theres nothing worse than panicking because your in a rush and then forgetting something silly.

 

from what i can see of your claim i would certainly make one claim for the whole amount, your only looking at small amounts of money, and even with the CI i dont think you will be looking at major figures.

But at the very least make sure you have atleast a couple of months of post 6 year charges in your pre 6 year claim. Like we spoke about before the bank cannot then argue the thing out of court based on its time limited issues alone.

 

PM me with your email address and i will try and send you a spreadsheet by email, if that helps.

 

Johnny

[muggins73]

Once again Johnny you have come through for me:)

 

Calm is again restored and I am crystal clear on 'exactly' what compounded interest is (and means as I looked it up in the dictionary:p).

 

I've spoken to a dear and trusted comrade, westy, you has kindly provided me with a spreadsheet that is both easy to follow and has no missing parts, and has clarified a few other points for me, so i'm chuffed. Thanks for the offer.

 

I am now in the process of entering all the necessary information onto the s/s and am gearing up to have the prelim letter out this evening.

 

I panic slightly as I get soooo frustrated when all you need is a clear-cut, straight to the point answer to a question and all you get is long winded waffle and loadsa directions to threads:mad:. When I respond to people I give them, or at least I hope I do, the information they require (sometimes more so) maybe I'm just trying too hard:o

 

Once again, thanks for coming to my aid, you are without a doubt a scholar and a gentleman:cool:

[progenic7]

muggins,

 

anytime you need a lil helping hand, just shout and i'll be there

 

Johnny

[muggins73]

muggins,

 

anytime you need a lil helping hand, just shout and i'll be there

 

Johnny

 

Shouting I'm good at:-D:-D:-D:-D

[muggins73]

Well after a long hard slog I've totted up my 10 years worth of charges onto three seperate s/s.

S/S #1 total penalty charges = £1,039.00 + contractual interest (compounded) = £14,851.18 which gives me a nice fat sum of £15,890.18:rolleyes:.

S/S #2 £1,039.00 + interest on penalties £108.27 + statutory interest on penalties £788.56 + statutory interest on interest on penalties £89.76 = £2,025.59

S/S #3 £1,039.00 + £108.27 + 29.8 CI on penalties £2,937.39 + 29.9 on interest on interest £334.36 = £4,419.02.

 

So after all my hard work I'm again at a crossroads. Obviously I need the figures checked to see which one is the correct one to use. The first looks a hell of a lot to me, not to mention the cost of court proceedings (I'm skint you know).

 

I have it on good authority, and providing I understand correctly as this and going beyond the 6 year limitation is all new to me, that as for the CI element, and by looking at the various threads on the subject, no-one has won a claim of any significance (i.e., more than a few pounds over £2000) with double-decked interest. In the end, they have got the total contractual interest charged plus statutory and no more. I have been strongly advised to go for the interest they've charged me plus the statutory rate. Or,at a pinch, one layer of unauthorised interest only, without statutory, as the Courts will not support anything else (something to do with greed) - apparently, there are a few failed cases to prove the point. So, whom am I to argue? Therefore, this means S/S's 3 should be thrown out of the window.

 

HELPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!

[progenic7]

muggins,

 

sorry to appear a little slow but these figures have confused me slightly, how have you come to these...i mean have you used mindzai spreadsheet and put all the figures in properly ?

 

well ok assuming you have done this the first claim clearly is quite a few quid, but if its ok then yes you have every right to claim it. At the end of the day its worth a try and if a judge declines the CI argument and only gives you 8% stat then so be it. On the claim form make sure you have several alternatives for the judge to use (this means a separate spreadsheet for each alternative as well)

 

keep me posted

 

johnny

[muggins73]

My computer wouldn't allow me to save Mindzais s/s onto disk let alone open it and vampiressess get being saved with formula missing.

 

S/S #1 was sent to me and inc. compunded CI (on penalties not o/d interest), and was originally one that vampiress put together, but IMHO the figures do look wrong to me.

s/s #2 is the normail advanced excel s/s found in the templates section with no CI

s/s #3 is the same as #2 but instead of the 8% statutory it is changed to 29.9%.

 

All the figures are entered correctly, but you can see why I'm having difficulty can't you:confused:

[muggins73]

At last my computer is beginning to play ball (it must be all the lovely sunshine we're having:)) and I have finally be able to open and download Mindzais CI spreadsheet:D

 

WHAT A RELIEF.

 

I will now abort all previous accounts and start from scratch with this fantastic looking spreadsheet. Thank be to mindzai, that man/ woman deserves a blinkin' medal!!!!!!!!!

[muggins73]

My claim amounts to a wopping £17,642.60 over 11 years (31/12/93 to date). A breakdown of these are as follows:

penalty amount £1,039.00

Compound interest (CI) £14,862.54 Total £15,901.54

 

Interest on penalties £107.82

CI on interest £1,633.25 Total £1,741.07 IS THIS RIGHT?

 

After reading Bongs' thread through again I'm still not sure if I am going to go down the CI route, after all she didn't technically win the CI argument just got a slightly higher rate than the statutory one, which in all accounts and purposes is better than a kick in the teeth!!!!

 

I am still in a quarry about claiming double-decked unauthorised interest, and again Bongs thread has proved that my reliable source may indeed be absolutely spot on, by advising me not to do it this way and stick to the interest they've charged me + statutory or just one layer of unauthorused without statutory.

 

I would REALLY appreciate a number of your thoughts on this. I'd like to get the PRELIM out on Monday to start the ball rolling before any major changes occur when the OFT finally reach a decision about bank charges overall.

[muggins73]

My claim amounts to a wopping £17,642.60 over 11 years (31/12/93 to date). A breakdown of these are as follows:

penalty amount £1,039.00

Compound interest (CI) £14,862.54 Total £15,901.54

 

Interest on penalties £107.82

CI on interest £1,633.25 Total £1,741.07 IS THIS RIGHT?

 

After reading Bongs' thread through again I'm still not sure if I am going to go down the CI route, after all she didn't technically win the CI argument just got a slightly higher rate than the statutory one, which in all accounts and purposes is better than a kick in the teeth!!!!

 

I am still in a quarry about claiming double-decked unauthorised interest, and again Bongs thread has proved that my reliable source may indeed be absolutely spot on, by advising me not to do it this way and stick to the interest they've charged me + statutory or just one layer of unauthorused without statutory.

 

I would REALLY appreciate a number of your thoughts on this. I'd like to get the PRELIM out on Monday to start the ball rolling before any major changes occur when the OFT finally reach a decision about bank charges overall.

 

Bump pls.

Why, oh why is nobody talking to me anymore?

[progenic7]

muggins,

 

hey sorry i have been working most of the weekend so i havnt been around, firstly you can only claim CI or s69 stat interest not both of them together.

so you either go with the CI interest, but make it clear from prelim stage that you are claiming this, or you just go with s69 stat (8% court interest), but you dont put that on till the court claim goes in.

 

Me personally i would go with the CI, but i think i may be tempted to not compound it, but rather just claim simple contractual, ie charges + interst taken + unauthorised rate = claim amount.

 

If you are confident you have entered all the figures into the spreadsheet correctly, then i wouldnt worry as im sure these figures are right.

Its up to you at the end of the day muggins which way you go, and it depends how confident you are of the legal arguments involved, and whether you really would be prepared to stand up in court and argue infront of a barrister.

 

I think go with the CI but just simple unauthorised interest (ie not compounded) and you will stand a better chance of success without the need to stand up in court.

 

best of luck

[muggins73]

hey sorry i have been working most of the weekend so i havnt been around, firstly you can only claim CI or s69 stat interest not both of them together

- this much i've managed to work out

 

so you either go with the CI interest, but make it clear from prelim stage that you are claiming this

already draughted,

 

or you just go with s69 stat (8% court interest), but you dont put that on till the court claim goes in.

i know this as i have successfully claimed against natwest twice

 

Me personally i would go with the CI, but i think i may be tempted to not compound it, but rather just claim simple contractual, ie charges + interst taken + unauthorised rate = claim amount.

sounds like a blinding plan to me

 

If you are confident you have entered all the figures into the spreadsheet correctly, then i wouldnt worry as im sure these figures are right.

My figures have been checked and double check, I think I should know them off by heart by now, considering the amount of times I've entered them onto different spreadsheets!!!!

 

Its up to you at the end of the day muggins which way you go, and it depends how confident you are of the legal arguments involved, and whether you really would be prepared to stand up in court and argue infront of a barrister.

 

I think go with the CI but just simple unauthorised interest (ie not compounded) and you will stand a better chance of success without the need to stand up in court.

 

best of luck

 

Thanks Johnny for the input...work..a life...that surely isn't allowed:D

 

Mindzais spreadsheet for contractual interest compunds it. Do you have any other spreadsheet, other than the one that vampiress has on google, which allows me to claim the simple CI as you've suggested?

[progenic7]

muggins,

 

sorry if some of the points i have raised you are already familiar with (i know you have already claimed before i just thought you were getting things wrapped around your head a little and needed some straightening out )

 

Well on the subject on simple spread sheets i do just happen to have in my own little collection, a couple of those lil gadgets. Thats all they are though just plain and simple spreadsheets, that merely work out the contractual rate from date of penalty, ie no componding involved. Also on the subject the ones i have dont work out the interest the bank charged you on the penalty (but you should be able to get that from your statements, unless you had an authorised overdraft and in that case it gets extremely complecated so i wouldnt bother anyway)

 

On the whole the interest the bank charged you on the penaly itself is usually fairly small anyway, but if you can clearly see this amount on your statement then put it in the spreadsheet.

 

Muggins im off on holiday tomorrow until next friday, so PM me tonight with your email address and i'll mail you a spready over ok.

 

If not you'll have to muddle through until i get back, (my holiday has fallen at a really bad time because i forgot im supposed to be filing my N1 claim forms on wednesday this week, but cant now till i get back :o )

 

never mind huh, a few days grace wont hurt and will only look good for me in court anyhow so im not too worried about it. I have five claims all at N1 stage this week coming, so things are going to get pretty busy for me over the next few months.

 

Johnny

[muggins73]

Holidays now, how unfair:p

 

Yep, I have to agree my head does certainly get wrapped up and often requires straightening out...with three kids under 5 I blame lack of sleep:D

 

I've managed to copy and paste my details onto vampiressess CI spreadsheet on google (the one without the compounded bit) and my total claim now amounts to £3977.24 with interest at 29.8%. however, this does not appear to include the interest they have charged me as there is no column to add in those details, is this correct?

 

I asked Lucid if there was any chance that I could adapt mindzais CI spreadsheet so that the compund element is left out. This is her reply

You would need to change the interest rate on the 8% statutory interest tab, as statutory interest is calculated as simple interest. Then you would have to change all of the headings describing 8% statutory interest. You would need to completely ignore the current contractual interest tab.

 

But contractual interest is calculated in the contract as compound interest - not simple. So really claiming simple interest at the contractual rate (either authorised or unauthorised borrowing rate) is a made up rate. This may not matter as they are likely to settle beforehand but looking at it from the "you will have to turn up to court to argue your case" point of view then how would you explain where you got that rate from? Possibly something worth considering.

 

Good luck. Lucid

 

I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this.

 

I'll pm you with my email address as it'd be fantastic to contact you directly now and again, as long as you don't mind.

 

Thanks again.

[progenic7]

muggins,

 

i have just emailed you hun with a couple of attachments (i hope these help).

im just off to bed soon, so i'll say bye for now and speak next week sometime...dont get fretting

 

email me whenever you like ok

 

 

johnny

[muggins73]

cor blimey, Johnny..you're everywhere:D

 

Have responded to your email. Thank you kind sir.

 

I'm off to bed. My son is ill so i don't s'ppose i'll be in it for long:( Aaahhh, the perils of motherhood:)

 

Ta ta for now, catch you soon.

 

muggs

[muggins73]

After a lot of deliberation I've finally come to a decision. I'm gonna claim beyond the 6 year limitation for total penalties charges, plus CCI authorised interest @ 18.9% EAR.

 

This is done in recognition that I was not always overdrawn, although most of the time I was and was charged @ 29.8% EAR, i haven't got the resources that the banks do in order to truely calculate my actual expenditure.

 

I figure I've got more chance of winning this way (as there are a few tried and tested cases out there that have been won).

 

As of today, my claim amounts to £6,074.92 and if you add interest of £675.18 comes to a healthy £6,750.11 without court fees This amount is increasing daily so lets see what they come up with.

 

Thanks to all of you that have helped me on my merry way, especially Lucid, westy, progenic and deller your input is invaluable

 

Obviously, I'll let you know of my progress.

 

All that is left to say is to wish me luck

[jowalshy]

Good luck and keep us posted.

[muggins73]

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

Thanks jo and will do:)

[muggins73]

today I will mostly be using mindzais spready, as it is by far the best:D:D

[thereshope!]

Hi Muggins

 

You know my feelings on contractual,they charged you it, you paid it,now it's their turn to pay !

 

You were one of the peeps that helped to focus me when I was in a mess trying to decide what to do regarding the interest.

 

I believe we were cut from the same cloth hun.You are a fighter,you have guts and determination.Hell, you took on nasty west and won -twice !

 

What other qualifications do you need in bank bashing ! You have them all:D

 

Go get em gal:cool:

 

Hope xx