Help needed please-Black Horse say OFT ruling does not apply

[Perseus]

Hi there

SAR lodged with Black Horse Finance 14th December 2006.

 

I could really use some help please?

 

SUbmitted a SAR to Black Horse at 25 Gresham Street, London. (registered address), and had a reply today stating that

"We have had a number of letters - similarly worded-prime purpose seems to be dispute the additional charges applied...we are happy to provide a copy of this info..won't serve a real purpose....We're aware of the recent OFT instruction -however this relates to credit card agreement debts. As our agreement with you is not such an agreement, the OFT instruction does not apply!..If the info is still required,£10 is payable..you state you enclose the £10 payment yet we have no record of this being enclosed. Please provide us with evidence of payment" Lisa Botten, Compliance and Admin, 116 Cocfosters Road, Barnet.

 

Are they right? Are they exempt? Do I have a chance with SAR and charges etc?

I would really appreciate some assistance as they've stung me quite a bit over the last 6 months or so...

 

Thanks

[diabolical]

They can 'say' anything to try and put you off. The fact is they will not go into a court and defend and they all pay up in the end:

 

Banks are 'mugging' customers | This is Money

[darling1]

Just ignore them and carry on to your own timetable...LTSB will do anything they can to put you off your claim. They are well known for it - just read all the other threads.

 

They cannot be correct as everyone else on this forum are succeeding with their claims and winning cases, using all the great advice from this site...

 

I have found LTSB to be obstuctive and difficult to deal with and mostly I find their letters very patronising! - Why not buy The Consumer Action Group self-adhesive stickers and put them on everything, I have, then they will know you mean business and are getting sound advice and WILL NOT give up!

 

Good luck - I won against the Halifax, just before christmas, It is a truly great feeling!!

[diabolical]

Good luck - I won against the Halifax, just before christmas, It is a truly great feeling!!

 

and I'm just about to win against the Halifax

 

who gives you extra, who who

[reidnet]

Black Horse are simply trying to pull the wool over your eyes, The issue here is that the charges they have added onto your account are Unlawful and they dam well know it.

 

I have to agree about Lloyds of course they will deny everything with vigour, they did that regarding a claim I had with Mis sold PPI, they denied it on national TV, but did not in my actual complaint. Needless to say a Complaint is winding it's way down to their press office about the comments they made..lol.

 

The OFT ruling does not in fact say that the level of charge that they set at £12 is fair, they simply state that they will only become involved if the charges on credit cards are over £12.. It is a way of cutting down the complaints they recieve..lol. I would still challenge a charge of £12 but hey I have become a right moaning face since finding CAG..lol

 

Ian

[TANZARELLI]

Did you send the fee for £10 by a cheque or a postal order?

 

If you sent a cheque check to see if it has been cashed, if you sent a postal order then you should have proof of postage, this can be used to prove the fee has been paid.

 

Dont just ignore them as suggested above write to them and inform them that penalty charges are unlawful and they law states they are irrecoverable. Also state that the timescale still stand and as of todays date they have ** days to comply. The information commissioners office stated to me that it is not the fee that makes a SAR a legal requirement it is the letter. Tell them that the timescale still stands and that a) you will prove to them the fee has been paid, or b) you will resend the fee.

 

If they fail to comply send them a LBA giving them 7 days to comply or you will ask the court for an order to make them, and may be seeking damages.

 

Hope that helps

 

Tanz

[darling1]

Sorry Tanz, when I said just ignore them I meant ignore their tactics, and carry on with your claim using all the advice available on this forum. I should have made myself clearer..............

[TANZARELLI]

Sorry Tanz, when I said just ignore them I meant ignore their tactics, and carry on with your claim using all the advice available on this forum. I should have made myself clearer..............

 

I just needed to clarify that, wasn't having a go. lol

 

It is quite easy to misunderstand things on here without hearing tone of voice and seeing the whites of peoples eyes. Or eye. lol

[darling1]

I am lucky enough to have 2 eyes, Lol. But thanks for making things clearer for perseus ...........we all need to have the very best advice we can get...

[TANZARELLI]

no probs

[Perseus]

Thank you all very much for your comments.

It's great to know that there's so much support available.

 

Darling, diabolical, reidnet, tanzarelli...

 

Yes I sent a postal order, and I'm scratching around trying to find the receipt for the Postal Order to track - I can't find it for love nor money.

The search goes on.

The major query I have is the response Black Horse gave me.

The account is a finance agreement, it is neither a credit card nor bank account (so now I'm thinking I'm even posting in the wrong section - sorry moderators!) - please move me as you see fit!

I have sent a SAR - which they will (apparently) honour, but they are stating that the OFT decision to curb extortionate charges - does not cover them as it is neither a credit or bank account.

Any ideas where I stand on this, and what sort of wording I can apply to a vigorous reply. I dont want to shoot myself in my size 14s and realise if it goes further down the road, I have no statute to rely or quote from?

 

Yours worriedly

[diabolical]

Read this relating to a Black Horse finance agreement:

 

un1boy vs Black Horse **Won**

[TANZARELLI]

Loans are credit agreements, so are credit cards. Penalty charges are unlawfull if they are disproportunate to the losses incurred by a breach of contract. So in my view this is the same ball game.

 

Just tell them the facts and keep to your timetable.

 

They want you to feel ill prepared, they want you to drop the case, not file a claim, and sit down and shut up, so they can rip you off and ake huge profits from your vulnerablility.

 

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

 

We wont sit down we wont let you skank us, and were certainly not going to stop standing up for our rights as consumers.

 

Keep focused and think about the fact that they have taken money off you which was done in an unlawful manor. Its your right to reclaim this back. They will try every trick in the book to wriggle out of it and try to defend their actions. But we know they wont go to court, unless they think they could win, as this would mean they would have to disclose their costs/losses, which they will never do.

 

Tanz

[un1boy]

Hi Perseus.

Sorry for the length of this post, but I hope everything in it will help you.

To address your situation step by step. Firstly they have refused to action a sar which is your legal obligation under section 7 of the the DPA (1998):

PART II

RIGHTS OF DATA SUBJECTS AND OTHERS

Right of access to personal data.

7. - (1) Subject to the following provisions of this section and to sections 8 and 9, an individual is entitled-

(a) to be informed by any data controller whether personal data of which that individual is the data subject are being processed by or on behalf of that data controller,

(b) if that is the case, to be given by the data controller a description of-

(i) the personal data of which that individual is the data subject,

(ii) the purposes for which they are being or are to be processed, and

(iii) the recipients or classes of recipients to whom they are or may be disclosed,

© to have communicated to him in an intelligible form-

(i) the information constituting any personal data of which that individual is the data subject, and

(ii) any information available to the data controller as to the source of those data, and

(d) where the processing by automatic means of personal data of which that individual is the data subject for the purpose of evaluating matters relating to him such as, for example, his performance at work, his creditworthiness, his reliability or his conduct, has constituted or is likely to constitute the sole basis for any decision significantly affecting him, to be informed by the data controller of the logic involved in that decision-taking.

(2) A data controller is not obliged to supply any information under subsection (1) unless he has received-

(a) a request in writing, and

(b) except in prescribed cases, such fee (not exceeding the prescribed maximum) as he may require.

(3) A data controller is not obliged to comply with a request under this section unless he is supplied with such information as he may reasonably require in order to satisfy himself as to the identity of the person making the request and to locate the information which that person seeks.

(4) Where a data controller cannot comply with the request without disclosing information relating to another individual who can be identified from that information, he is not obliged to comply with the request unless-

(a) the other individual has consented to the disclosure of the information to the person making the request, or

(b) it is reasonable in all the circumstances to comply with the request without the consent of the other individual

 

Any breach of the requirements of the DPA are actually a criminal offence and I would make them aware of this. From what I can see you have given them a request in writing, along with the fee, which is a legal request from you to the Data Controller for a disclosure of your information. They have breached this.

As for your fee, they say it wasn’t included; if you can find the PO receipt, I would write back to them saying that the 40 days starts from your previous request as you have sent them a formal request under section 7 and they also had the fee.

In terms of claiming back charges – Black Horse provide credit, mainly in the form of loans for the purposes of Hired Purchase (HP) agreements. Any charges they have applied to these accounts are unlawful unless they represent the actual losses incurred by the lender (which, they obviously do not).

They are right in what they say about the OFT ruling not applying to their type of accounts, but someone posted the above and it is entirely correct:

The OFT ruling does not in fact say that the level of charge that they set at £12 is fair, they simply state that they will only become involved if the charges on credit cards are over £12.. It is a way of cutting down the complaints they recieve..lol. I would still challenge a charge of £12 but hey I have become a right moaning face since finding CAG..lol

But it is important to add that they also told the lenders to not just reduce them below the £12 mark, however many of them did. This is irrelevant however because until these companies provide a standard disclose detailing exactly how much it costs them when we go over limits etc, then any amount they charge is unlawful. I know of and have helped people to claim £12 charges back and each time they have won!

I would have to say, please don't listen to anything they say to try and put you off, as said above they will try anything.

Also have confidence in yourself - you are entitled to claim these charges back, and you are in the right forum.

I hope this helps a bit. Any questions, just post and we will all help you!!

[Bookworm]

Perseus, don't even bother arguing with them at this point, they are responding to a request for refund you haven't even made!!! It's none of their business why you are sending a SAR. Don't let them distract you into a response which is irrelevant at this point.

 

Concentrate on finding the proof of your £10 payment and send a COPY (of course ).

 

If you can not find it, unfortunately, you'll have to send another one, and the 40 days will only start ticking from when they receive that one.

[Perseus]

Fantasic - thank you all so much - you're all pillars of strength.

Un1boy - I appreciate your response, valuable quotables...

Bookworm - I think it will be another SAR (damn it!) no proof available for the P O, and no copy details without providing specifics, from the post office.

 

New SAR on it's way tomorrow, along with a now-informed response to their Compliance and Admin office, plus a CCA request! - with triplicate copies of the Postal Order for me!!!!!

 

I'll update as I get any more

 

Thanks again.

Perseus

[TANZARELLI]

Thanks for the click.

 

You can ask for a receipt for proof of Postage and you should get one for the postal order too.

 

Tanz.

[Perseus]

Hi all, just so I get this right.

 

Black Horse have received my SAR, acknowledged in their letter of 12 th Jan.

They apparently have not received my £10 Postal Order - for which I have no receipt (bad me bad me)

 

If I send a £10 Postal Order Special Delivery - does the 40 days limit reset itself or can I take it from their acknowledgement?

 

Thanks for your help in this.

 

Best regards

[TANZARELLI]

Its the letter that is the SAR not the fee, I wouldn't send another I would send the £10 fee afain, even though I bet they have had it and are trying it on. However write a quick line saying that the date of your origianl SAR still stands.

 

 

Hope that helps

 

Tanz

[Perseus]

Thank you Tanz.

[un1boy]

As far as I understand it, the date starts from when they receive the letter AND the fee, so it would start from when you send them the fee mate:

7. - (1) Subject to the following provisions of this section and to sections 8 and 9, an individual is entitled-

(a) to be informed by any data controller whether personal data of which that individual is the data subject are being processed by or on behalf of that data controller,

(b) if that is the case, to be given by the data controller a description of-

(i) the personal data of which that individual is the data subject,

(ii) the purposes for which they are being or are to be processed, and

(iii) the recipients or classes of recipients to whom they are or may be disclosed,

© to have communicated to him in an intelligible form-

(i) the information constituting any personal data of which that individual is the data subject, and

(ii) any information available to the data controller as to the source of those data, and

(d) where the processing by automatic means of personal data of which that individual is the data subject for the purpose of evaluating matters relating to him such as, for example, his performance at work, his creditworthiness, his reliability or his conduct, has constituted or is likely to constitute the sole basis for any decision significantly affecting him, to be informed by the data controller of the logic involved in that decision-taking.

(2) A data controller is not obliged to supply any information under subsection (1) unless he has received-

(a) a request in writing, and

(b) except in prescribed cases, such fee (not exceeding the prescribed maximum) as he may require.

[Perseus]

Many Thanks Un1boy

New S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) and £10 po and cca and £1 all in the post this morning.

 

As I am submitting a new SAR, and they have provided a 'statement of account' which shows only 2 charges (both collection activity charges!- what are they!) - should i add to the SAR template insisting on a breakdown of what and when charges were added?

 

Talk about delay tactics!

Thanks

Perseus

[un1boy]

Hi Perseus,

 

Any up date on this?

[Perseus]

Hi Un1

 

Sorry for the delay, had so many things going on, forgot to update...

I drafted a letter to them based on your reply 17th Jan, and finally fot the paperwork I needed 20th Feb - took them just over 3 weeks.

They said that they had paid my first £10 onto the account in error!

 

Sent the prelim letter off asking for charges and interest (contractual), and haven't heard anything since.

Thank you - this has prompted me to get my finger out and sent a 2nd LBA for the charges.

 

I'll update on the reply.

thank you - so many threads on the go - forgot about this one...

 

Perseus

[un1boy]

Hey,

 

No probs, I know what you mean!!

 

Keep us updated....