Evans Halshaw/Halifax car finance - car purchased Apr 22 engine replaced Nov22 Faulty Turbo ***Resolved with Compensation from Finance Company***

[theberengersniper]

18 hours ago, Martin244 said:

could the possible oil contamination be anything to do with the replacement vac pump needed too?

Hi Martin,

No, the vacuum pump has no lubrication feed, at least not from your engine's main oil supply. It's lubrication is self-contained.

The vacuum pump is normally responsible for evacuating the vacuum side of your brake servo, reducing the amount of pedal pressure you need to provide to make the brakes work effectively. In some cases, in cars with hydraulic clutches (rather than cable operated), the vacuum pump can also be responsible for a similar function there, reducing the amount of clutch pedal pressure you need to exert to disengage the clutch. I assume your vacuum pump was replaced as part of your engine/clutch change, as would be good practice.

[Martin244]

Hi As far as i can work out the vacuum pump or clutch were not replaced with the engine. The Vac pump seal was but i'm guessing this is different to the whole vac pump?

I have uploaded a copy of the original invoice for the engine replacement that lists all parts that were fitted as new and refitted from original. Also in the attachment is an email from Evans Halshaw telling what now needs replacing the vac pump and turbo but no explanation as to why these have failed or why they need replacing.  i've removed my personal details including registration number

I tried speaking to vauxhall again yesterday evening who have no update but will hope to by early next week. The oil test kit will hopefully come today but I wont be able to get a sample taken until tomorrow. 

Thanks again. 

my vauxhall.pdf

[Martin244]

My vauxhall diag.pdf

[theberengersniper]

I see by looking at your invoice that a number of 'seals' have been replaced, but it's clear that although evidently Vauxhall's parts system refers to these as 'seals', many of them are in fact what would more commonly be referred to as 'gaskets'.

I'm pretty certain what was replaced with your vacuum pump was in fact its gasket. If the pump was removed as part of the clutch replacement process (and remember, the clutch needed removed and refitted to the new engine, even if they didn't replace it, so they still need to effectively perform a clutch change as part of your engine change), even as part of a diagnostic process, they would be obliged to replace its gasket because these things are almost always single-use items.

The same applies to the line that reads 'Turbocharger seal'. In order to fit your original exhaust and turbo to your new engine, they would have been obliged to use new gaskets for those, hence the lines in your invoice. Same with bolts etc. The bolts that attach your engine's flywheel to the crank shaft, and clutch to your flywheel, are also single-use, hence their presence on the invoice.

I haven't seen anything on that, at first glance, I'll check in more detail later, that causes me any concern. In fact you could view it as reassuring that they're following the service procedure.

[Martin244]

Hi Thanks for taking a look. I have also attached the diagnoses check that they provided me with two weeks ago not that i understand it but i would hope you do? 

Evans Halshaw do not answer any of my emails when I ask for further info, they havent since I picked the car up two weeks ago. 

I'm still at a loss as to why the turbo needs replacing. 

[theberengersniper]

Your diagnostic report has a few different faults in it, but the one we're currently interested in is the code P0299 - Engine Underboost. 

As the name of the code suggests, that means your turbocharger is not providing the boost pressure it should do. In case you're not sure what a turbocharger is, it is in the simplest terms a shaft with an impeller on each end. One impeller sits in your engine's exhaust flow, and is turned by the force imparted by the exhaust gas leaving your engine after combustion. Because both impellers are attached to the same shaft, the exhaust impeller turning also turns the impeller that sits in your engine's air intake system. That impeller is responsible for compressing the air entering your engine above atmospheric pressure. That rise in pressure and air density means extra air and fuel can be squeezed into the engine's cylinders, providing a bigger bang and hence more power. That's ultra simplistic, and in fact it's a lot more complex than that, but it gives you a basic picture.

The pressure the turbocharger achieves over atmospheric pressure (1 bar) varies by engine, but it'll be somewhere in the region of 1.3/1.5 bar). If something goes wrong with your turbo, for example, if the turbo bearings and contaminated and damaged (like we suspect they have been by engine bearing debris) then the turbo will not be able to spin freely. If it can't spin freely, a lot of that exhaust gas energy has to be used to overcome the excess drag or resistance, rather than being used to spin the compressor, and hence, the boost pressure produced by the turbo is reduced.

If that boost pressure is reduced, your engine will detect that loss of boost. The loss of boost means your engine needs to restrict the amount of fuel being injected, it produces a lot less power, and if things get really bad, the engine will enter a 'limp mode' to protect itself. This is what has happened to your car.

It seems to me almost certain that bearing material from your thrust bearings has caused your turbo bearings to fail through oil contamination, and as a result, your turbo cannot produce the boost it should, and hence the fault code P0299 has been recorded.

In my view it's now crucial to your argument that you obtain these oil samples, and in fact I would now want an independent engineer to inspect and diagnose your turbocharger itself.

The chain of events is quite clear in my mind (and I think I'm right), but we really must set about proving it. Your oil test and magnet experiment is the first port of call. 

[Martin244]

Hi thank you for the above, i signed up to this site under my husbands name looking for advise and it is proving to be invaluable. I wish I had your knowledge

The test kit has been delivered to my home today but I'm at work. Tomorrow I'll have the kit and go to the garage for the oil sample. I'll go back through your previous posts for where I need the oil from. How would they get an oil sample from the turbo? 

I'll keep you posted. Thanks again 

[theberengersniper]

The bearings in your turbocharger are fed with a constant supply of high pressure oil that serves to both lubricate and cool the bearings. The oil is pumped into your turbo via either semi-rigid metal pipes - similar in appearance to brake pipes - or via braided flexible lines. The garage will certainly know where to look for these. There will be two of them; one is the feed line that brings fresh oil up from the pump, and a return line that takes excess oil back to your car's oil sump.

I would ask the garage to draw a sample from both the feed and return line, which they can do by simply unbolting each line one after the other and letting the oil drain out before refitting it. The reason you want the sample to come from the turbo is because we suspect that's where the biggest concentration of debris will be now, if there is any. Your recent service will have replaced the oil in the sump, and the oil filter, both of which would have been our first port of call had that service not happened, but then you were in a catch 22.

While that's happening, I would suggest it would be worthwhile spending a bit of time considering whether you want to have the turbocharger itself investigated and its cause of failure independently assessed. If you did that, you'd be hoping the engineer found either actual bearing debris in the oil system, or obvious bearing damage.

[Martin244]

Hi I’m still thinking about the independent assessment, it’s just whilst I’m still waiting for the outcome from Vauxhall and the finance company I don’t want to get a report to early without the outcome from the other resources first.

I feel like I’m throwing money away on a car that is no good and that I’m in debt for. I know I’ve only spent £116 but how much do I throw at it if Vauxhall are just going to say no anyhow. £20 on 1st diagnoses, £54 on second independent garage and now £40 on the oil test. How much would an independent assessment likely to cost for the turbo and could i get this done in Hull? I looked on the motor ombudsman website today and the closest place to me i could find was Barnsley, I couldn’t get the car there.

I know after 6 months of me owning the car it’s down to me to prove the car wasnt of satisfactory quality, so I’m trying everything I can. Halifax are in no rush to help at all, I rang them yesterday and they haven’t even given me a case manager yet. 
I’m still having to drive the car to work as I have no other way of getting there, dare not buy another car , which would have to be on finance as I don’t want to be stuck with two lots of finance and a dead car. 
cheers

[Martin244]

Hi

Just to update

I had the oil sample posted off and this was delivered to millers on Thursday.

I also did the magnet test but didn’t find any metal attached to the magnet. 

Last Thursday afternoon Vauxhall customer care contacted me to say they will replace the turbo and carry out the repair covering the full cost. My car is at evans Halshaw awaiting the parts as apparently they’re on back order.

Today I received the results back from millers and the results were no abnormal amounts of metal/swarf but they did find a high level of silicone/sealant likely from the engine replacement last year, their comments were as below,

@theberengersniper you were right.

I’m still waiting on Halifax and they’re not budging on the 58 day’s complaint timeframe.

The Silicon content will drop as the oil is changed

The reason we comment on Silicon probably from sealant as in this case, is that the sealant can block oilways and/or limit oil pick-up which can cause turbo failure and even engine failure due to oil starvation. So the turbo failure could have been caused by the engine work or just bad luck.

We haven’t found any swarf but the Silicon content is above the accepted limit for engine oil, usual cause in these circumstances is the use of sealant on the cam cover and/or sump

[theberengersniper]

@Martin244 - I'm just catching up with this thread after a time away, and it's wonderful news to see that things are now being sorted for you!

If you think the advice you received here was valuable, maybe you would consider making a small contribution to the site. The whole site is run for free and by volunteers like the ones you engaged with here, particularly people like Bankfodder, DX, Honeybee etc. Any contributions make the costs of running the site that little bit easier to meet. If you feel like that's something you'd like to do, you can find the orange 'Donate' button by scrolling to the bottom of the page.

[Martin244]

Hi I’ll definitely make a donation. To update further I now have the car back, new turbo fitted and oil and filter changed, as well as the new vac pump.

Halifax the finance company have also upheld my complaint in full. They rang me two days ago and have offered me £700 in compensation for the stress and time without my car. One of the main reasons they accepted the complaint is because of the oil sample results and the silicon. Thanks very much for all the advice. 

[BankFodder]

Well done – and thank you for the donation