Victorian Plumbing or Labourer issue - how can we resolve this

[kerrypops]

We recently had a bathroom supplied by Victorian Plumbing.  When finished we noticed the bath leaked and flagged it with the labourer (who we employed) and he said he's noticed the bath was slightly out but didn't think it would cause issues - he never once raised that there was a possible fault.  It did - badly.  Water continuously ran off the bath and onto the floor, getting under the bath and damaging the flooring.  

 

We contacted Victorian Plumbing who said it was a manufacturer fault.  We discussed with our labourer who told us that "the tradesperson always ends up out of pocket as we lose 2 days of paid work to fix these problems".  Victorian Plumbing agreed to refund the cost of the bath but not the associated refit labour costs.  We told the plumber this and he didn't say anything about it - just that we need to let him know when we get the new bath we should let him know. 

 

We bought a bath elsewhere and it was fitted yesterday.  At the end of the day we were presented with a bill for fitting for £400.  At no point in any of our correspondence with the fitter did he say there was a cost, or indeed confirm what that cost would be.  We would have pushed Victorian Plumbing to cover this cost if he hadn't implied that he was doing unpaid work.  

 

I don't think I have a leg to stand on to now go back to Victorian Plumbing.  Who is at fault and how on earth can I resolve this without being out of pocket?

 

Thank you

[dx100uk]

im sure this would fall under a consequential losses claim.

 

pinging @BankFodder

 

dx

 

[BankFodder]

It sounds quite a lot like consequential loss but in this case I think it could be recoverable.

The interesting thing here is that Victoria plumbing apparently have agreed that there is a fault although they say that it is a manufacturers fault and presumably they are trying to say that the manufacturer is liable.

In fact if Victoria plumbing have supplied a faulty item then I would say that they are liable for all of the losses which are the direct and foreseeable result of their breach of contract.
It's absolutely foreseeable that a bath would be fitted, and that if it was faulty it would have to be refitted or replaced and refitted and that this would incur additional costs.

The most important thing here is to try to get it on record that Victoria plumbing have admitted that there is a fault with the bath.

What precisely is the fault? Is it visible?

And as a general warning, there are often problems way you purchase something from one company hadn't have it installed by somebody else. It always gives an opportunity for each party to try and pass the buck onto the other party and you end up as the piggy in the middle.

Do you have evidence that Victoria plumbing have agreed that there is a fault? If not then you need to think about how to get them to admit it on a telephone recording for instance. Read our customer services guide

[kerrypops]

We do have an email admitting it’s a manufacturer fault from VP. In the same email they said they will refund the item but not the labour (which our labourer seemed to accept). We are now a couple of months down the line and the bath was bought elsewhere. 
 

the fault is a slope of the product so water pools on the top. We sent picture and video evidence when they claimed it was a manufacturing fault. 
 

our issue is reopening this claim now the fitter has changed his mind. How do I go about this. 
 

thanks for your help so far 

[BankFodder]

By how much are you out of pocket on this?

This means, how much are you out of pocket by the time you have subtracted the price which you originally agreed to pay for the bath and for the work.

Please list it out in tabulated form

[kerrypops]

It would be £400 for the additional days labour. We have already paid for the entire bathroom works to be completed, even though there was an issue. 

[BankFodder]

I did ask you to set out in tabulated form but you haven't done that.

Do I gather that if you manage to recover £400 that you would then be out of pocket by exactly the amount you originally agreed to pay and you would have a satisfactory bottom in place?

In other words would recovering £400 set you at zero?

[kerrypops]

Yes I think so. We have paid £5000 for the bathroom fitting. The bath has been refunded and we have purchased another with that money. The outstanding invoice is £400 which, if refunded would set us to be £0 out of pocket. At the moment we haven’t paid the £400 as we are disputing it. 
 

does that help. 

[BankFodder]

I'm worried that you only think that 400 is the outstanding amount.

 

From whom are you withholding the 400 pounds?

[kerrypops]

From the plumber. What else should be outstanding? I’m really not sure. 

[BankFodder]

And could you just tell us once again why you are withholding the money from the plumber

[kerrypops]

He implied that the labour was free. We’ve had numerous discussions about how he would be losing out on two days worth of pay (ended up being just one day). He only landed the bill on us after fitting it. He fit the bath originally knowing there was a fault but he said he didn’t realise the extent of the fault. 

[BankFodder]

In what way did he imply that the fitting would be free ?

 

In the end, I understand that it only took him one day to complete the installation. Is this correct

[kerrypops]

Of the replacement. Yes that’s correct. 
 

he told us that he would be losing out on paid work to fix the problem and he didn’t discuss a price with us on the numerous contact we had with him. We told him we tried to get compensation to cover the cost of his labour from the outset and that the company refused. At no point did he tell us that we’d need to pay. Again, he knew there was a fault but didn’t raise it until we pointed it out. 

[BankFodder]

Thank you. First of all the entire liability lies with Victoria plumbing and your claim is against them for whatever losses you might have suffered.

 

 

As to bringing an action. You will have to show that you have suffered a loss and that means that you will have to produce some kind of receipt to show that you have paid the plumber something.

 

In terms of the liability to the plumber, although no price may have been discussed, it is clear that he would expect to be paid and in any normal circumstances he would be paid. Where a price had not be an agreed then a reasonable price would be implied.

 

My own personal view is that it is not the fault of the plumber and to withhold money from him not only would be very unfair but would also be a breach of contract.

If your plumber came here and asked us for help we would advise him to claim against you, seeking a reasonable price for a days work and I am absolutely certain that we would win against you.

 

You will not be able to claim  against Victoria plumbing unless you pay the plumber first.

 

If you think that 400 pounds is too much for a day's work then you should work out a reasonable price with him and pay him the money and get receipt and then we will help you claim it from Victoria plumbing.

 

Once you have evidence of your payment to Victoria plumbing then we will help you make the claim and I am certain that you will win. They would be foolish to resist and they would probably be put their hands up, but if they forced you to court then I expect that you would have a better than 90% chance of success.

 

In any event, the plumber deserves to be paid

[kerrypops]

Thank you so much for the comprehensive response, very much appreciated. 

[kerrypops]

We seem to be in a bit of stale mate with VP. Because our plumber indicated he’d lose out having to refit the bath, we didn’t push it with VP. Now we’ve raised again to have the costs covered, they are now saying case closed as we accepted them saying they wouldn’t cover it. Can we still fight this? I’m frustrated our plumber wasn’t clear from the start and now we have to lose out. I’m trying to post screenshots but it won’t allow me to. 

[BankFodder]

I really don't understand what is happening here. You came to this forum asking how you could resolve this and we have explained how you can achieve this.

Now you have come back again raising all sorts of objections as to why you don't think you can.

I think you need to make up your mind about this and then start taking control. If that's what you want

[kerrypops]

I completely understand. What I’m asking is are we able to pursue it further if we’ve already accepted to just take the money back from VP for the bath? Can we still claim for consequential losses even though Victoria plumb think that we’ve close the case with them?

[BankFodder]

Tell us about the circumstances of the refund and any communication relating to it

[kerrypops]

They gave us a refund for the bath and panel. They said they wouldn’t cover labour costs. After speaking with our plumber and him telling us he was losing out on pay to fix this issue, we accepted the claim as he said he wanted to keep us happy by resolving the problem and replacing the bath. We would have pursued it if he’d been clearer. We told VP that we accepted this as a final settlement, at that point not being aware of potential further consequential losses. This is where we are stuck. 

[BankFodder]

Did the refund they give you equal exactly your Outlay or did they give you anything on top by way of compensation

What about the Faulty bath? How was that disposed of

[kerrypops]

Exactly the amount of the bath. The plumber took the bath away as VP said they didn’t want it back. 

[BankFodder]

In other words, Victoria plumbing did no more than they were obliged to do by law anyway, which was to give you a refund of the item.

This means that they gave no additional consideration for the promise that it would be in full and final settlement.

 

I don't think there was anything to stop you proceeding for the rest of your expenses which were reasonably incurred.

What about the plumber, have you paid him yet

 

[kerrypops]

Thank you so much. 
 

not yet, we need to find the money for this as it’s a cost we weren’t expecting.