PCN for unpaid parking at Car Park 2 @ QE Hospital London

[Dormiens]

Hi there,

I was hoping to get some advice...

 

I just received an appeal rejection from them today and stumbled upon this forum in a last bid attempt to avoid coughing up 40 quid.

 

Also FYI it was a rental car that got fined; the rental company had emailed me on 25 Nov about the violation,

told me they had released my driver details to Wise Parking and charged an extra 35 pounds as an admin fee on top of the fine.

 

1 Date of the infringement 13/11/2022

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 14/12/2022

 

3 Date received 22/12/2022
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] Y
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Y
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] Y

 

Unfortunately it was typed out and submitted on Wise Parking's website sl

 

I don't have a copy of the appeal in its exact words.

 

My justification was that I am new to the country and I was not aware that it was a paid carpark,

 

also owing to the fact that it was dark (2am) when I drove in and I was basically quite distracted (girlfriend had appendicitis hence the A&E visit at 2am) and sleep deprived after having a long day out in town.

 

Didn't see any obvious signs that said parking was payable.
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up Y

 

Thank you for your appeal received on 22/12/2022 regarding the above detailed Parking Charge Notice.

 

We have reviewed the case and considered the comments that you have made. This appeal has been considered in conjunction with the evidence gathered by our ANPR cameras.

 

Our records show that the notice was correctly issued as your vehicle was parked in breach of the Terms and Conditions of Parking.

All signage on site states you should Pay on Exit at one of the machines on site, or pay on entry using PayByPhone - the details are on each sign.

It is important for us to ensure that Parking Charge notices are only issued when they should be.

 

As part of our quality checks we look to see if there are payments which have been made that can be allocated to vehicles where
the registration may entered incorrectly.

As the terms of parking say you should enter your full, correct vehicle registration number, we have checked your registration number against our records.

 

As we know simple errors can happen we checked for record matching the beginning of your registration, the middle, and the end all separately to see if we can identify a payment which has been made which is likely yours. There are none.

Consequently, after careful consideration your representation has been declined.

 

It follows therefore, that as the
Parking Charge Notice was correctly issued that the discounted amount of £40.00 remains outstanding.

 

Please now make payment of £40.00. We must advise you that once the discounted settlement rate passes it will not be
offered again.

Payments can be made online at www.paymypcn.info or by using the 24 hour automated telephone line at 0330 1649264.
 

If you are unable to pay online or by the telephone, you can post your payment by cheque or postal order made payable to Wise Parking Ltd to Parking Control Dept, PO BOX 7989, NN11 1HJ

Please ensure you write your Parking Charge Notice number clearly on the reverse. Please do not send cash through the post.

You have now reached the end of our internal appeal and have a number of options:

1. Pay the Parking Charge Notice within 14 days at the prevailing price of £40.00 by 13/01/2023. Please note after this date, the full charge will be due at £80.00 and must be paid by 27/01/2023.

 

Payment can be made online by
visiting www.paymypcn.info

 

2. Make an appeal to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS) within 21 days of this letter by visiting www.theias.org and use the parking charge notice and vehicle registration to access your appeal.

 

Please be advised that if you choose to have independent arbitration of your case, and your appeal is declined, then the Parking Charge will be
due at the full amount of £80.00

Yours sincerely,
The Appeals & Legal Department
Wise Parking Ltd

 

7 Who is the parking company? Wise Parking

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Car Park 2, QE Hospital, London
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

IAS

Adobe Scan 30 Dec 2022 BW.pdf

 

Thanks so much in advance!!

[dx100uk]

Where does any of their paperwork state this is a FINE please?

 

Dx

[Dormiens]

Sorry I’m a little confused by your reply, I assumed it’s the same as a fine as in I’ve been served a legal notice to pay up. Do you mean that I don’t have to pay in this case?

Edited December 30, 2022 by dx100uk
unnecessary previous post quote removed

[dx100uk]

only a magistrate in a criminal court can ever fine anyone. private parking matters are not a criminal offence, thus not and never can be a fine. 

 

it's a speculative invoice because the driver broke some imaginary contract by driving a car onto a privately owned piece of land that the landowner might have employed a private parking company to manage.

 

now if the contract is even legally enforceable is a matter of several conditions, esp down to if the private parking company attained council planning permission for their signs and cameras and poles. many do not.

 

sadly as you've appealed and most probably outed yourself as the driver, you've lost you protection under POFA . however as others will outline all is not lost.

 

until you receive a letter of claim, you do not respond to them again 

 

 

[lookinforinfo]

You said that you car was hired. 

 

I take it then that Wise sent the initial letter to the hire Company who gave Wise your name and address.

 

Then Wise sent you a PCN relating to the alleged offence.

 

They are supposed to include with the PCN a copy of the details from your contract with the Hire company,

 

confirmation from the hire company that you were in charge when the event happened and that you had signed that you were responsible for all debts incurred when you had the car.

 

They don't usually include those other items thus rendering the hirer immune to the charges from Wise.

 

Also the PCN should read Notice to Hirer and should only give you 21 days to pay the charge not the customary 28 days.

 

If what I said is correct then you can carry on with your life safe in the knowledge that whatever they say and however much they increase the alleged debt, you will always owe them nothing.

 

You can check this out by looking up the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4 Section 1s [2] and section14 [2] [a] and [b].

[dx100uk]

dont forget pals too at the hospital?

 

 

[Dormiens]

Yes that's right, however the hire company did email me the attached on 25 Nov; it included details of my contract and the parking offence. I don't know if this would be the documents mentioned in POFA 2012 Section 13 (2)...I haven't received anything else from Wise apart from the PCN.

 

Yes Dx I'll email the hospital's PALS then. Thanks!

 

 

 

enterprise T+Cs re traffic offences.pdf

[dx100uk]

you do realise they cant take the £35 from you as an admin fee

go do a chargeback to your bank

 

it is not a traffic offence

it is not a FINE.

 

that part of the contract is not enforceable upon you.

 

make them prove it is!!

[FTMDave]

If you do a search in the forum for "Wise Parking" you'll see that dx is spot on about PALS and there have been numerous victories.

 

Also it costs 68p to send a 2nd class letter, not £35!  dx is right, do the chargeback tomorrow!

[dx100uk]

use our enhanced google search box.

 

dx

 

[lookinforinfo]

I have just read the whole Court case of VCS v Idle and Ward.

 

It was an appeal by VCS after they had lost in their first Court cases.

 

On appeal VCS agreed to drop the appeal against Idle over the question of whether he was the driver.

Therefore Idle did win his case so not as persuasive as Ambreen stated.

 

I think that you should ask the Court to challenge the paralegal on her appearing to say that the Nick Idle case was persuasive. 

 

 

 

[FTMDave]

Wrong thread LFI?

[lookinforinfo]

You are right ftmDave as ever. It should have been on Didusha's thread.

 

I am so sorry for the confusion.

 

[lookinforinfo]

Thank you Dormiens for confirming Wise did not include the documents forwarded to them by the hire company.

 

As I said in an earlier post if they don't include those details they lose their ability to pursue you. 

 

Here is the confirmation from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012  Schedule 4 section 14 [1][a] and [b]

1)If—

(a)the creditor is by virtue of paragraph 13(2) unable to exercise the right to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges mentioned in the notice to keeper, and

 

(b)the conditions mentioned in sub-paragraph (2) below are met,

the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer.

In other words because the registered keeper [the Hire company] have provided Wise with your details Wise cannot 

pursue the Hire company but if they comply with the next subparagraph they can pursue you, the hirer.

 

This what the next sub paragraph states-

 

(2)The conditions are that—

(a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5)

(a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper;

 

As they only sent the PCN without a copy of the documents sent by the Hire company they have failed to comply with the Act you are not liable for the charge. Not only that but the PCN they sent you was the wrong one. As the hirer you should only have 21 days to pay the charge not 28 days.

 

Not quite sure why they call themselves Wise. But even if Pals cannot help, you have no worries. If they continue to pursue you, you could pursue them for breaching your GDPR.

[Dormiens]

So I received a letter from Trace Debt Recovery today - my total payment due is now 150 pounds. Should I just ignore it?

[FTMDave]

Ignore it.  And make sure you laugh at them while ignoring it.  Trace are an uninterested third party with no power to do anything.

 

Any update from PALS?

 

And about the chargeback?