The sub-postmasters scandal

[tobyjugg2]

Hollinrake says Post Office Horizon inquiry has shown evidence of 'not only incompetence, but malevolence'

 

In the real world its obnoxiously likely that the actual guilty will almost certainly get away with it, with the costs born by the UK taxpayer.  'Common' murderers, liars and thieves must be really envious.

Edited January 10 by tobyjugg2

[honeybee13]

I saw in the Guardian live feed that a Tory minister who was standing in for someone else said he asked to see Paula Vennells. He wanted to understand the situation better; she refused to meet him without her lawyer.

That tells us something, this isn't normal.

[theoldrouge]

Bates wrote to Davey on five occasions in request to meet him to discuss the matter 
Despite the ongoing prosecutions Davey refused 
As for Starmer he was DPP at the time and could have taken over the prosecutions or reviewed why so many subpostmasters had gone rogue at the same time 
He did neither 

[honeybee13]

And how many other ministers did AB write to? I think Davey is being used as a distraction?

Are you sure the DPP can just take over prosecutions from an institution that's done its own for 300 years?

[cjcregg]

That question was covered by the inquiry's own expert counsel. It can only be done if the defendant asks the DPP to take over the prosecution from the PO, but of course none of the victims were ever told that.

[tobyjugg2]

Starmers department dealt with just 11 didn't they? and 3 of those acquitted?

Starmer as head would only be directly involved with significant high profile cases or issue that raised red flags - why would less than a dozen individual cases with evidence supplied and falsely confirmed by PO staff raise flags?

Mind you - no one recently, MPs or otherwise could claim that - especially the current ministers etc involved eh?

 

Bit desperate to cloud the issue/attempt to redirect blame with smoke and mirrors as usual eh @theoldrouge The straws you clutch at dont really make much smoke or very good mirrors (except on yourself) though do they?

 

What is interesting is the arguments against a wide ranging overturning of the convictions which although some of the arguments include some relevant points - also seem little more smoke and mirrors or lack of thought.

Given the now widely known 'issues with the validity of the horizon reports and the honesty of the PO representatives - it seems quite clear to me (as already stated) that all the convictions are at the very best unsafe - and the PO can always raise charges through more normal processes if they believe they have anything genuine to support a case that any of these people were actually dishonest.

and i think one or two (very very few possible has been stated)  possibly real crims getting off lightly (temporarily) is a very small price to pay for the benefit to hundreds and hundreds of innocent victims who have suffered FAR to long

 

 

[honeybee13]

Here's tonight's Graun editorial on the SPMs.

The Guardian view on justice for the sub-postmasters: the reckoning has only just begun | Editorial | The Guardian

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

---

Editorial: Compensation for innocent victims of the Post Office scandal must be accompanied by a ruthless process of holding their tormentors to account

 

[honeybee13]

This is Jo Hamilton on Twitter, to Sunak and Zahawi.

'You still haven't paid to GLO group and the fact that you think throwing £75k at people will help, just shows how completely out of touch you are. Wouldn't even cover the interest on what has been stolen from them by POL'

[honeybee13]

Tom Witherow in the Times is doing a lot of work on this.

'Important point when writing about Horizon scandal:

 

There are 4,000+ victims - not 'hundreds':

** 983 overturned convictions

** 2,750 HSS (lost money, weren't prosecuted)

** c. 500 more in #MrBatesVsThePostOffice group (exc OC)

** 100+ more came forward post-ITV.

 

Total = 4,333

 

ETA: Tax guru Dan Neidle says the PO don't know how many people were affected.

 

Also that some SPMs were pressured into signing draconian non-disclosure agreements [NDAs] with little or no legal advice. He thinks they should be released from the NDA obligations so they're free to speak.

[cjcregg]

2 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

This is Jo Hamilton on Twitter, to Sunak and Zahawi.

'You still haven't paid to GLO group and the fact that you think throwing £75k at people will help, just shows how completely out of touch you are. Wouldn't even cover the interest on what has been stolen from them by POL'

I'm still not clear if the £75k is an interim payment or full & final.  Hollinrake said it was an 'upfront' payment so it could mean either. Either way it's a pittance in comparison to the £600k others are supposed to be getting.

[honeybee13]

The public inquiry today has Stephen Bradshaw, PO investigator.

From the Guardian 'Bradshaw has been described as having a “heavy footprint” in the scandal after being involved in the criminal investigation of nine post office operators.'

 

[tobyjugg2]

From what I've seen the 75K is an immediate upfront payment for those that sign up to accept the 600k offer

- still some contradiction on whether those that go for the full assessment (potentially more money) get the 75k up front  but a few I've seen certainly seem to have detailed that as being the case.

and all is taxpayer funded as far as I am aware so far.

[cjcregg]

Bradshaw's just a low-level investigator. The focus on his culpability in all this is being overblown. 

[honeybee13]

So you think the Graun has this wrong, CJ?

[cjcregg]

The £600k only applies to those that have convictions overturned. The vast majority of the 555 were never convicted.

[cjcregg]

Just now, honeybee13 said:

So you think the Graun has this wrong, CJ?

Well what does 'footprint' even actually mean?  

[tobyjugg2]

they have to sign a document stating they didnt commit the offense, so I dont think thats correct @cjcregg. It might have been tied by some to the 'automatic overturning of their convictions - which I understand has majority support across parties despite any issues like separation of politics and courts .. which is already an issue given the majority were apparently prosecuted by the PO

There was something about any real crims not applying if they didnt want too? Although I cant think why someone who was dishonest  wouldn't.

Also strange to see headlines about Fujitsu getting a bill - apart from some of their staff being involved in supporting the criminal cases against innocent staff - as the ones I've seen undoubtedly were aware of the issues. - aka perjury?

 

 

[honeybee13]

Judge Wyn Williams has just told Bradshaw that he's allowed to refuse to answer a question if he thinks it could incriminate him, or words to that effect. He has lawyers in court who will be allowed to advise him today.

[honeybee13]

I see what CJ means about Bradshaw. They seem to be tying him up in knots and the answers seem to indicate that he was only following orders and that a lot of his WS asserting fair investigations was written by Cartwright King who acted for POL.

And he isn't technical so he seems to be implying he didn't understand Horizon.

[cjcregg]

He's just an unsophisticated career yes man. The post office is full of them.

[honeybee13]

You seem to know a lot about this?

[cjcregg]

Not really but I have followed the inquiry quite closely from the start. 

[cjcregg]

3 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

they have to sign a document stating they didnt commit the offense, so I dont think thats correct @cjcregg.

 

 

The 555 aren't required to sign a statement to say they they didn't commit an offense, because no one is suggesting they did. The statement only applies to those who have been convicted and will be subject to the blanket exoneration. 

[honeybee13]

I'm confused. Is the GLO 555 Alan Bates's group?

[cjcregg]

Yes and only a handful of them were convicted as they weren't eligible for any settlement money arising from the GLO. The GLO was a civil claim and so couldn't have any effect on those with criminal convictions. 

 

 

 

Edited January 11 by cjcregg