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    • the claimant in their WS can refer to whatever previous CC judgements they like, as we do in our WS's, but CC judgements do not set a legal precedence. however, they do often refer to judgements like Bevis, those cases do created a precedence as they were court of appeal rulings. as for if the defendant, prior to the raising of a claim, dobbed themselves in as the driver in writing during any appeal to the PPC, i don't think we've seen one case whereby the claimant referred to such in their WS.. ?? but they certainly typically include said appeal letters in their exhibits. i certainly dont think it's a good idea to 'remind' them of such at the defence stage, even if the defendant did admit such in a written appeal. i would further go as far to say, that could be even more damaging to the whole case than a judge admonishing a defendant for not appealing to the PPC in the 1st place. it sort of blows the defendant out the water before the judge reads anything else. dx  
    • Hi LFI, Your knowledge in this area is greater than I could possibly hope to have and as such I appreciate your feedback. I'm not sure that I agree the reason why a barrister would say that, only to get new customers, I'm sure he must have had professional experience in this area that qualifies him to make that point. 🙂 In your point 1 you mention: 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver. I understand the point you are making but I was referring to when the keeper is also the driver and admits it later and only in this circumstance, but I understand what you are saying. I take on board the issues you raise in point 2. Is it possible that a PPC (claimant) could refer back to the case above as proof that the motorist should have appealed, like they refer back to other cases? Thanks once again for the feedback.
    • Well barristers would say that in the hope that motorists would go to them for advice -obviously paid advice.  The problem with appealing is at least twofold. 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver.  And in a lot of cases the last thing the keeper wants when they are also the driver is that the parking company knows that. It makes it so much easier for them as the majority  of Judges do not accept that the keeper and the driver are the same person for obvious reasons. Often they are not the same person especially when it is a family car where the husband, wife and children are all insured to drive the same car. On top of that  just about every person who has a valid insurance policy is able to drive another person's vehicle. So there are many possibilities and it should be up to the parking company to prove it to some extent.  Most parking company's do not accept appeals under virtually any circumstances. But insist that you carry on and appeal to their so called impartial jury who are often anything but impartial. By turning down that second appeal, many motorists pay up because they don't know enough about PoFA to argue with those decisions which brings us to the second problem. 2] the major parking companies are mostly unscrupulous, lying cheating scrotes. So when you appeal and your reasons look as if they would have merit in Court, they then go about  concocting a Witness Statement to debunk that challenge. We feel that by leaving what we think are the strongest arguments to our Member's Witness Statements, it leaves insufficient time to be thwarted with their lies etc. And when the motorists defence is good enough to win, it should win regardless of when it is first produced.   
    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
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Does this notice comply with the POFA?


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we cant tell you sadly

as you removed just about everything that plays a part in pofa.

 

please complete the relevant section of this sticky.

Have you received a Parking Ticket? - Private Land Parking Enforcement - Consumer Action Group

 

and post up to one multipage PDF  bothsides of the PCN/NTK

 

the only things you need to redacted are

your pers details,

barcodes,

reg numbers

ref numbers

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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all i have redacted are the personal details, photos of the car, parking charge details and then entrance and exit time

i have left the entire wording, however i have uploaded the back of pcn and front of it again

So now the whole document is up

please can someone tell if this complies with POFa or not

frontofpcn.pdf backofpcn.pdf

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questionnaire please.

we still done know where this happened.

 

there is not such thing as a limit of 0 mins or even 30mins free parking time

the council will never have stipulated such a short parking period when granting planning permission.

 

that makes the issue of POFA immaterial even if there was an issue , which appears not.

but you most certainly do not appeal anyway even if there were one.

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Ok let me put it another way

 

I haven't asked about the parking event or anything that happened during the event

 

What I am simply asking here is this particular notice POFA Compliant or not ,

does it meet the conditions for keeper liability or not?

 

( i should i wasnt the driver  -hence why i am asking about the wording)

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to what end is this useful if it's not pofa compliant?

 

53 minutes ago, dx100uk said:

that makes the issue of POFA immaterial even if there was an issue , which appears not.

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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6 minutes ago, dx100uk said:

to what end is this useful if it's not pofa compliant?

 

 

simple

when Horizon are challenged  if its not POFA and I appeal as the keeper challenging non compliance they will withdraw

So can one of the knowledgeable people let me know if its POFA or NON POFA, much appreciated

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11 minutes ago, horizonparking1 said:

simple

when Horizon are challenged  if its not POFA and I appeal as the keeper challenging non compliance they will withdraw

 

You're joking, aren't you?

 

Horizon and similar companies never, ever accept appeals - ever.

We could do with some help from you.

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5 minutes ago, FTMDave said:

 

You're joking, aren't you?

 

Horizon and similar companies never, ever accept appeals - ever.

Sorry that simply isnt true, horizon have always cancelled their non pofa notices when ive appealed them in the past, but ive noticed a change in wording so wanted to check

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save it for if or when they issue a letter of claim.

do fire any useful arrows earlier than is necessary if at all.

 

never appeal fullstop!

 

now start doing your homework on planning permission

 

i believe though you still refuse to tell us

this is a very famous carpark in southend?

 

 

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dx100uk said:

that makes the issue of POFA immaterial even if there was an issue , which appears not.

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

If as you claim, you have had success with these cowboys cancelling parking charges before when challenged on POFA, just do as you have done before with this one and see if they cancel it.

Do you have a letter from them you could share with the group, where they cancelled a previous charge, as it would be interesting to see. 

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5th time...it appears to me it does.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Well, you've pushed me to read all of the POFA sections on private parking, something I should have done before, and I agree with dx.

 

However, as miley_b ob says, examples of Horizon accepting appeals would be very useful to the forum, our experience is that the PPCs always refuse appeals.

We could do with some help from you.

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well it looks like people are wrong here and i am confused as why i took so long to get a simple answer (and just beating around the bush) and as per PP they normally cancel on first appeal when challange.....

 

From PP forum

 

9 (2) (a) No period of parking. Moving in front of a camera, by definition, is not parking.

9 (2) (e) Invitation to keeper is not there in the required format

9 (2) (f) Notice of keeper liability is incorrect.

Here's POFA: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9...edule/4/enacted

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper No. xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc




First class post with free certificate of posting from a post office.

The other POFA fails will go into the POFA appeal if required.

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eh?

if 9 (2) (a) is wrong then so are all ANPR captures.

 

e and f are on the PCN

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

You posted an example of a defence, and a not very good one.

 

Have you got an example of Horizon accepting an appeal?

We could do with some help from you.

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I would agree that the PCN fails. It is supposed to be a Notice to Keeper advising them that the driver breached the T&Cs and that if the driver does not pay  after 28 days then the keeper becomes liable for the alleged debt providing guidelines of PoFA have been adhered.

 

First the PCN has to state that they do not know the name of the driver and a current address for the service and invite the keeper to pay the charge or if they were not the driver to provide the driver details and pass on the PCN to the driver

 

So to my way of thinking, until the 28 days have elapsed the liability to pay lies with the driver.

Yet the PCN is asking before the 28 days for the name of the driver [though not invited] so that the liability can be transferred to the driver!

 

Then it doesn't make clear that any unpaid amount is due by the keeper. It is worded badly and it is misleading.

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Yes the timescales are rigid for POFA, if there is an NTK before expiry of that notice might be a GDPR issue if they did get Keeper details and driver  actually did pay before 28 days up, think Lookedinforinfo has good point

We could do with some help from you.

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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Well, another day passes, and despite requests in posts 16 & 20 & 23 the OP hasn't posted a single example of Horizon having accepted an appeal.

 

Now, I wonder why that should be 😆

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

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