Radclyffe v HSBC

[coolchilli]

I have two accounts with HSBC which I am reclaiming bank charges on.

 

ACC1 (Radclyffe Sole Trading Account):

Charges 05/10/2001-4/11/2006 = £3,356.48

Interest 05/10/2001-27/11/2006 = £1,517.84 (calculated at standard overdraft rate 25.08%)

 

ACC2 (Radclyffe Current Account):

Charges 18/10/2000-31/08/2006 = £1,047.71

Interest 18/10/2000-27/11/2006 = £ 637.61

 

Total Claim = £ 6,559.64

 

The sole trading account was for a business which I closed in December 2004. This has been the subject of another complaint to HSBC (now largely resolved) and the account has been recently closed.

 

Correspondence to Date:

 

04/09/2006 to HSBC: Letter 01 informing of intent to claim, and requesting copy statements

 

17/09/2006 to HSBC: Letter 02 setting out details of claim on ACC1

 

25/10/2006 to HSBC: Letter 03 reminding them of claim on ACC1

 

06/11/2006 to HSBC: Letter 04 second reminder of ACC1 claim

 

19/11/2006 to HSBC: Letter 05 setting out details of claim on ACC2, third reminder of ACC1 claim 28 day deadline for refund

[coolchilli]

27/11/2006 Telephone Call from HSBC to me

 

Very pleasant gentleman (Senior Product Manager, Retail Commercial Core Products dept) telephoned to say that my claim had been escalated to him. He wanted to call to see if it could be solved simpler than by post and email. Asked me for the basis of my claim. He explained to me that as my account was a business account then I was not entitled to the same refund as a personal account holder, and the OFT ruling did not apply! Made some offers over the telephone to reduce some of the charges, I asked him to summarise by email (see next thread).

[coolchilli]

27/11/2006 Email from HSBC to me

 

"

Dear Mr Radclyffe

Without Prejudice

I thank you for your time at the telephone this afternoon and as requested, set out below the basis of my offer to refund charges as outlined.

Charges incurred for the period May 2002 - October 2006

Daily Excess Charge £700 (25 returned items)

Return Cheque / Direct Debit Charge £862 (253 days in excess of facility

limit)

Proposed charge

Return Cheque item charge £15 £375

Daily Excess Charge £2 £406

Refund Total

Return Cheque £325

Daily Excess £456

 

Interest at 8% on original debit value total of £1,562 - £124.96/Yr - say 2 years £250

Refund Total - £1,031

 

"

[coolchilli]

27/11/2006 Email from me to HSBC

 

"

Dear [ ],

Firstly, I wish to express my thanks to you for calling me today. I had begun to reach the conclusion that I would not be hearing back from HSBC regarding my claim for charges which I originally made on 4th September, so I am pleased that you have contacted me today to resolve this. I trust that we will be able to satisfactorily resolve the matter, although I fear from your email that it may not be quite as straightforward as you suggest.

I set out my claim as follows:

Charges on account ACC1 from 05/10/2001 to 4/11/2006 = £ 3,356. 48

Interest on account for period 05/10/2001 to 27/11/2006 at standard overdraft rate (25.08%) = £ 1,517. 84

 

-----------

Claim on account ACC1 £ 4,874. 32

-----------

 

Charges on account ACC2 from 18/10/2000 to 31/08/2006 = £ 1,047. 71

Interest on account for period 18/10/2000 to 27/11/2006 at standard overdraft rate (25.08%) = £ 637. 61

 

-----------

Claim on account ACC2 £ 1,685. 32

-----------

 

-----------

Total Claim £ 6,559. 64

-----------

If you would like me to consider your proposal, it would be helpful if you would itemise each item together with your proposed charge. For your convenience, I attach a spreadsheet of my workings. This way we will also be able to accurately account for the interest due back to me. However, you will see from your records that I have been a long-standing customer of HSBC and, save for the complaint I made in March of this year of which this is a part, I am generally a satisfied customer of your bank. I therefore do not wish that this dispute be escalated to the point where it leaves my future relationship with HSBC one which is untenable, nor do I wish to be in a position where we both get tangled in a long, complicated, and detailed dispute.

You will also see from your records that I recently agreed a 'Managed Loan' in full and final settlement of all my indebtedness to HSBC except specifically for my credit card, and overdraft facilities on my Student Account and Bank Account Plus. The loan balance agreed was £ 7,240. My suggestion, in the interests of resolving this matter in the most expedient way possible, is that you set aside the sum £ 6,559.64 against the loan balance which will leave me the sum £ 680.36 to repay under the terms of the loan agreement.

I trust that this will meet your satisfaction, and I look forward to hearing from you again shortly.

Yours sincerely,

 

"

[coolchilli]

28/11/2006 Email from HSBC to me

 

"

Dear Mr Radclyffe

Without Prejudice

I thank you for your response and have noted your comments.

Unfortunately it would appear that your claim presupposes that your [business] account should have been opened and classified as a personal account and treated / charged on that basis - for reasons that at this moment in time I am unclear of.

As I think I mentioned, resolution of this is something you need to take up before I can address the issue of charges. Until such time as this is been resolved and the basis of the charging treatment is agreed I regret and I am unable to progress this any further.

 

"

[jax1964]

I don't understand his 1st email to you - is he offering to refund some of the charges?

[coolchilli]

Hi Jax,

 

Thanks for your email. My understanding is that he is offering to reduce the charges on an individual basis- say from £27 to £15. The problem, is there are so many charges that I can't work out whether his sums are correct or not!

 

In any event £1000 refund for £6500 claim is not acceptable to me, but at least they are taking my claim seriously!

 

Cheers,

 

 

Charles

[coolchilli]

29/11/2006 Email from me to HSBC

 

"

Dear [ ],

Thank you for your email.

The advice I have taken suggests that the issue of whether this is a business or a personal account is something of a red herring and probably has more relevance to my general complaint to HSBC rather than my charges claim.

Can I ask that you either:

a) Arrange to set aside my claim against my Managed Loan; or

b) Itemise your proposal in the format of my spreadsheet for me to analyse

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Sincerely,

 

"

[babsp2000]

Chilli....if I were you I'd remove your personal details.....sort nos and acct nos.......not the sort of thing you want hanging around on the net!

[coolchilli]

Babsp, thanks for that- I hadn't noticed. All removed now!

[Guest bong]

Looks like you're managing to keep on top of things. You've done well by not giving in to the paltry offer they've made!

 

There are a number of other HSBC business account claims going on at the moment (I'm not one of them) and I know that there is some uncertainty over what can be claimed, as the charges are often lumped together under a single heading of Total Charges. You might want to make contact with these other users at some point to compare notes.

[the_final_straw]

Thanks for putting me onto this thread bong,

 

Chilli, I've gone down a slightly diferent route -

 

Instead of claiming back my business a/c 'total charges' I have written to them to ask for a detailed breakdown first. I have a sneaky suspicion they dont want to release the full and exact details of 'total charges' because my next letter will demand to see the exact loss incurred by them and to state very clearly and precisely that they did not profit from the charges if they cant, one must presume they are penalties (and unlawful).

 

I'm keeping all of this correspondence under my original sar so there is a timeframe they must adhere to and also they will be breaking Data Protection rules if they fail to respond...which I'll sue them for!

 

As far as I can see, they have two options: disclose the information and openly admit some (or all) are penalties (and unlawful) or dont disclose and risk the wrath of Data Protection and a claim for the full amount.

[coolchilli]

Hi, thanks final_straw. I think at this stage I'll continue with this route, but I won't rule out the S.A.R. route should I not get any joy from them.

 

Its been one week since my last email to HSBC and still no response...

[coolchilli]

06/12/2006 Email from me to HSBC

 

"

Dear [ ],

It's been nearly a week since I last heard from you. Please can you let me know which of the two options you have chosen?

Sincerely,

 

"

[coolchilli]

07/12/2006 Email from HSBC to me

 

"

Dear Mr Radclyffe

Thank you for your email - I have not "chosen" an option but will send you, in due course, our offer.

"

[coolchilli]

07/12/2006 Email from HSBC to me

 

"

Dear Mr Radclyffe

STRICTLY PRIVATE & CONFIDENTIAL -- WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Further to your email of 27th November 2006, I detail below my offer in respect of the Business Overdraft (ACC1).

The personal account (ACC2) does not fall within my area of responsibility. As such I am neither able nor prepared to comment on charges made on this account and this is something you will need to pursue separately.

I repeat my refund offer made earlier in so far as this relates to the charges made which were required to control your business account - returning cheques / standing orders / Direct Debits and the daily service / monitoring / review charge made when in excess of an agreed facility.

By way of background to these, the Bank's position is that in circumstances where you have authorised a payment that would, if met by us, lead to your account going overdrawn or over an agreed overdraft limit, we have to take time to consider whether or not to make this payment. If we agree to make the payment then a daily fee is payable; if we do not, then a charge for returning the item may be applied. Not only are details of these charges clearly set out in our published Price List, but the circumstances in which they will apply are clearly presented in our Business Banking Terms and Conditions, both of which you were provided with when you opened your account.

My proposal, which reflects a reduced charge level for the purpose of this discussion and calculation only, is as follows:-

 

Proposed charge

Return Cheque item charge £15 - 25 items £375

Daily Excess Charge £2 - 203 days £406

 

Refund Total

Return Cheque £325

Daily Excess £456

TOTAL refundable charges £781

 

Interest charge

Your email calculates an ongoing and increasing debit interest charge which to the time of writing totalled £1,537.76.

Underlying this, and built into your spreadsheet, is the assumption that the entirety of the amount charged is reflected in a current, visible debit balance that in turn continues to attract a debit interest rate of 25.08%.

This is clearly and demonstrably not the case especially since the transfer of the hardcore element to a loan account at a rate agreed with the bank.

For this reason I have not used your spreadsheet in calculating the value of this part of my offer.

Perhaps the most exact and equitable solution would be the recreation of your account - with the revised charging levels indicated above to arrive at a true picture of what was paid at what rate - reflecting such limits as may have been in place at the time. With the benefit of this both parties could then take a view as to what was equitable.

However this is likely to be an extremely time consuming exercise - in the interests of which I am prepared to make an exceptional offer in respect of the interest element of £500.

Combined with the above charging refund this makes the total refundable to you £1,281 in full and final settlement of this claim.

 

 

I realise that this is substantially short of the £3,913.63 total you claim in your letter of 4th September 2006, including as it does all the other standard business charges. If you elect to pursue a refund of these other charges, based on your assertion that this should have been a personal account, then I will not be able to proceed with settling this refund offer until that question has been finally and conclusively resolved.

Moving forward, I would also ask you to seriously consider whether our tariff, as outlined in our Business Banking Price List and as it specifically relates to the charges made historically on your account, is one that you find acceptable. The charge levels discussed here and used in calculating your refund total will not be used when calculating future control charges, which will default to their standard published rates. If this is not acceptable to you then you should consider making alternative banking arrangements and in the light of this correspondence I will require your specific confirmation to this moving forward.

Please let me know how you would like to proceed.

"

[the_final_straw]

Hi Chilli,

 

I've PM'ed you an answer to your question.

 

The first email sounds very cheeky and that could be a bad sign. He isnt going to get cheeky if he's fighting a losing battle.

 

The last email is very interesting -

 

So what he's saying is he doesnt like your figures so has come up with some of his own which (by his own account) have been plucked out of thin air!! - "in the interests of which I am prepared to make an exceptional offer in respect of the interest element of £500"

and

"that in turn continues to attract a debit interest rate of 25.08%.

This is clearly and demonstrably not the case especially since the transfer of the hardcore element to a loan account at a rate agreed with the bank.

For this reason I have not used your spreadsheet in calculating the value of this part of my offer."

You need a detailed breakdown of ALL of the charges. Some of which will most likley be 'fees for services' but some will be penalties. You need to be able to seperate them... HSBC dont make this easy due to the way they lump virtually everything under 'Total Charges' But thats now THEIR problem not yours. You have done your level best to come to accurate figures using spreadsheets etc. They have randomly plucked figures out of thin air!

 

If you went into a restarant with four friends and got a bill at the end of the night for -

'Total Food' you would probably demand to see a breakdown of that bill.

 

This is exactly what you are asking HSBC to do - provide me a breakdown of that bill. Its not much to ask and should be well within their enormous powers to provide you with this information. They obviously trusted their systems to make the charges in the first place and there should be some sort of a record to show how those figures were arrived at.

Indeed, I'm pretty certain they must keep this information by law (for the tax man, inland revenue, etc) for a minimum of 7 years and 6 years for Data Protection.

 

They DO have this information. You need to see it. Do it under sar and then use the original sar to ask to see a more detailed breakdown as they have not provided you with adequate information as per your orginal sar

 

LINK to my follow up sar letter to see if they will disclose

[coolchilli]

10 December 2006 Email from me to HSBC

 

DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998

Subject Access Request

 

Dear [],

Thank you for your email dated 7th December.

I accept your comments that the interest calculation in my spreadsheet does not reflect the fact that the balance of my business account has now beeen transferred to a loan account. I have therefore recalculated the interest until 1st December 2006 when the business account was closed. I have also taken the opportunity to calculate the compound interest paid, which I had not considered in my original claim. My revised figures are therefore as follows:

ACC1 Charges: £ 3,356. 48

Interest: £ 2,173. 01

 

Total: £ 5,529. 49

 

ACC2 Charges: £ 1,047. 71

Interest: £ 1,119. 09

 

Total: £ 2,166. 80

 

 

Total Claim : £ 7,696. 29

For me to consider your offer, please supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to my banking history with HSBC on the above two accounts. Additionally, where there has been any event over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure or any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking with you.

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response. Please take this email as authorisation for you to debit my account ACC2 by the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply, and if you are unable to demonstrate that the above charges levied are proportionate then I shall be reclaiming them at County Court together with the £10 Data Protection Act subject access request fee.

Alternatively, and without prejudice, I will be prepared to accept in full and final settlement of my claim the sum of £ 7,240 to be transferred into my managed loan account and that account to be closed within the next 40 days.

Finally, I find your comments 'moving forward' quite interesting. I have already indicated to you that I no longer use HSBC busines banking, instead preferring the services of Lloyds Corporate and Barclays. I have also indicated that I am an otherwise satisfied HSBC Personal Banking customer. Please can you clarify exactly what you mean, and if you are indeed suggesting that I should consider moving my personal accounts to another establishment please can you confirm this to me for me to consider.

I look forward to receiving your response in due course.

Yours sincerely,

[coolchilli]

11 December 2006 Email from HSBC to me

 

"

Dear Mr Radclyffe

WITHOUT PREJUDICE - STRICTLY PRIVATE & CONFIDENTIAL

I have forwarded your DPA request and payment authority for action.

I refer you to my earlier email - and repeat that my responsibilities extend solely to business accounts. I am not able to make ANY comment on your personal account charges and any reference to these will not be actioned or referenced in any future discussions.

This is something you do not seem to have fully understood and must now take up separately - reference to this specific clarification and direction will be held on file.

Please also note that I will not be undertaking any future correspondence via email and will, in future, only respond to written requests. Any future attempts at email correspondence will receive, by way of response, a reiteration of this statement.

"

[coolchilli]

18 December 2006 Letter from HSBC to me

 

"

Dear Mr Radclyffe,

 

Thank you for your request with regard to information about transactions and charges/ fees on your account.

 

We will forward you copies of statements covering the period in question. These will begin to arrive in separate batches and will be with you shortly.

 

We are happy to cover any fees for the production of this information.

 

Although many of our systems are automated, a "manual intervention" by HSBC staff may be required in a variety of situations including; account opening, dealing with correspondence or telephone calls, when deposits or withdrawals are made over the counter at our branches and from time to time during the account administration.

 

If you require more information, please let us know.

 

Yours sincerly,

 

 

[]

Centre Manager

"

[coolchilli]

02 January 2007 Letter from HSBC to me

 

"

Thank you for your letter dated 19 November 2006 requesting a refund of your bank charges going back six years. I have deducted the sum of £189.50 from your claim as this amount has previously been refunded to you.

 

We are not prepared to refund your ATM charges as those charges are imposed by other service providers in relation to you using their ATM machines.

 

HSBC's interest rates are well publicised in respect to both formal and informal overdrafts. You have asked us to refund overdraft interest on your account. It is, of course, a condition of your borrowing from us that you will pay interest at the agreed rated on that borrowing. As such we will not be refunding the interest that has been applied to your debt.

 

In circumstances where you have authorised a payment that would, if met by us, lead ot your account going overdrawn or over an agreed overdraft limit, we have to consider whether to make this payment. A fee is payable for this service provided by the bank, details of which are clearly set out in our published price list. The circumstances in which the fee will apply are clearly set out in our Personal Banking terms and conditions which you were provided with a copy of when you opened your account. If your claim for a refund proceeded to Court, we therefore believe we would successfully resist any legal challenge in relation to these fees.

 

HSBC is, however, mindful of the management time and irrecoverable legal costrs that it may incur in relation to such a claim. For those commercial reasons alone, and without any admission of liability whatsoever, HSBC is prepared to make a payment to you in the sum of £700.00 representing the charges applied in full and final settlement of this matter.

 

If you accept this proposal please sign and return the enclosed copy of this letter to us within 10 working days and we will arrange for a refund to be made to you. Please allow 7 working days for your account to be credited from receipt by ourselves. If we do not receive your signed acceptance within this timescale, we will take it that you have declined our offer.

 

I trust that this matter has now been addressed to your satisfaction. If you are not satisfied with the bank's response you have the right to refer your conmplaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service. Further details about the Ombudsman scheme are set out in the enclosed leaflet and you have six months from the date of this letter, within which to refer your complaint to them should you decide to do so.

 

Thank you again for taking the time to write.

 

Yours sincerely

 

[]

Senior Service Quality Officer

"

[coolchilli]

05 January 2007 Letter from me to HSBC

 

"

Dear [ ],

I am writing further to my Subject Access Request made on 10th December 2006, and your letters of 18th December 2006 and 2nd January 2007.

I have now received the duplicate statements for my accounts and notice that you have only supplied me with partial information regarding some of the charges you have made against the accounts. In particular those worded “Total Charges” which have been applied to the account at intervals throughout the six years in question.

I would ask that you provide me with a specific description for each of the charges itemised in the spreadsheet which I attach, as I do not consider “Total Charges” to be clear, accurate, or precise enough for anyone to adequately determinate to what these charges relate. I would also ask again for any details of manual interventions on my accounts (if any) to be supplied to me under my Subject Access Request. It does not appear to me that the charges I have itemised correlate to the fees for services under the agreement signed between HSBC and me.

With regard to your comments on interest charges, I am not seeking repayment of interest paid on my debt to you, but I am claiming compound interest on the charges you have incorrectly applied to my account at your standard overdraft rate. I believe this rate to be justified on the basis that you have had the use of the funds and would have used them to lend at commercial compounded rates and would therefore be unjustly enriched if any lesser rate of interest were to be applied to the debt. I have recalculated the amount I am reclaiming as of today’s date with compound interest applied daily and attach a spreadsheet of my workings. My total claim therefore currently stands at £7,826.75 for the two accounts.

I am however, prepared to compromise this matter on the following terms but shall not be accepting your present offer of £700.00 as full and final settlement. I will agree to withdraw from any further action against your bank both in respect of my claim for bank charges and in respect of my Subject Access Request if you clear my Managed Loan (balance which currently stands at £7,040) and refund me the £200 I have already paid in respect of this loan. I trust this is acceptable to you, and I look forward to receiving your response to the points raised in this letter and my Subject Access Request by the deadline of 19th January 2007 or indeed confirmation acceptance of the terms of offer by this date.

Yours sincerely"

[coolchilli]

23 January 2007 Email from me to HSBC

 

"

Dear Mr Cuff,

You will recall that I made a Subject Access Request under the s.7 1998 Data Protection Act on 10 December 2006. The prescribed period for you to handle my request is given as 40 days in this Act. Unfortunately, I have not received the information which I asked for- namely the complete breakdown of the 'Total Charges' on my statements.

 

You will also note that my current claim stands at £ 7,922.19 including compound interest. My next course of action is to inform the Information Commissioner of your breach of the DPA, make a complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service with regard to these charges, and issue a writ at the County Court pursuant to recovering the amount due.

 

I note that you were not willing to look at my business account save in isolation from my current account. Please be aware however, that I intend only to make one complaint each to the Information Commissioner and Financial Ombudsman Service, and issue a single writ in respect of this; as, as far as I am concerned I have a single claim against HSBC. I understand this might cause you some inconvenience dealing with a single complaint or claim should this matter be taken further, but I understand that I am not under any obligation to separate my complaints or claim simply on the basis of your internal policies.

 

I am however still prepared to compromise this matter at this stage on condition that my current account is credited with the sum of £7,240 within the next seven days or alternatively that I receive confirmation of my 'managed loan' account being settled, and that the two repayments of £200 are being refunded to my current account. I will also agree to not taking any further steps towards making an official complaint should my offer be accepted within this time-frame.

 

Please be advised I am not willing to enter into any further dialogue with respect to these charges, as I feel I have now given HSBC ample opportunity to fully explain their validity or offer me a refund.

I note that you did not wish to enter into any further email correspondence after your email of 11 December 2006, but I am sending you this email out of courtesy and as my final attempt to prevent this matter being unnecessarily escalated further. I do not see any merit in sending this by post, as I rarely have the courtesy returned of my letters being acknowledged or answered, as the example of my 5 January 2007 letter illustrates.

 

I trust that I have made my final position clear, and I hope to receive confirmation of your acceptance by close of business 29 January 2007. Email is, of course, by far the most convenient means of communication; and I would advise that should you choose to respond by post, you consider also sending me an email notification.

I look forward to your response, and I hope that you also seek to avoid this matter being taken further.

 

Yours sincerely,"

[coolchilli]

23 January 2007 Email from HSBC to me

 

"

Your message

Subject: RE: Data Protection Act 1998- Subject Access Request

was not delivered to:

[email protected]

because:

User jonathoncuff ([email protected]) not listed in Domino Directory

 

 

-----------------------------------------

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[coolchilli]

23 January 2007 Email from me to HSBC

 

"

Hi [],

 

We corresponded some months back regarding a complaint I made regarding service received as a customer of HSBC. My complaint has been progressed, and I have been dealing with a gentleman called Jonathan Cuff who is a Senior Product Manager in your Retail Commercial Core Products department.

 

Unfortunately the email I have sent him this morning has bounced back to me with the message that the user does not exist (attached). As the matter is urgent, would you be so kind as to forward it onto someone else in his department, as I assume he has now left the company.

 

Many thanks,"