NPE PCN - 177-195 Histon Road, Cambridge, CB4 3HL

[unquietsoul]

For PCN's received through the post [ANPR camera capture]

 

please answer the following questions.

 

1 Date of the infringement 25/11/2018

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 30/11/2018

 

3 Date received 1/12/2018

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [y/n?] Yes

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes. Looks like one photo of the car in the parking space, from behind, and one photo close up of the number plate from the same spot (maybe a zoom in from the same photo).

 

6 Have you appealed? {y/n?] post up your appeal] No, was about to give up and pay when I found this site.

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

 

7 Who is the parking company? National Parking Enforcement Ltd. (PO Box in Wymondham, Norfolk) email/website for them is "parkingprotection"

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] They have put "177-195 Histon Road, Cambridge, CB4 3HL"

It took me several hours and google maps to work out the spot

- there is a row of shops set back from the road main road (Histon Road) accessed by car from a side street (Windsor Road) with a row of parking spaces.

I have been parking there periodically to go to the Co-Op for about 10 years with no problems.

 

On this occasion it was a Sunday evening and all the other shops were shut except the Co-Op and Golden Wok Chinese Take-Away.

I did notice that there are now some yellow lines painted into the parking area to denote parking bays/spaces, but didn't think anything of it.

I saw one sign when we left but could only make out the words "private land", couldn't read the rest from the car.

We were leaving then anyway.

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. Yes, IAS

 

…..................................

 

Hi, I am a new user - not sure how the forum works, but here goes.

I have done the copy and paste for PCN through the post with ANPR pic, and answered the questions, below.

I got a parking charge notice after spending 18 minutes in the Co-Op.

I have been parking there for about 10 years no problems.

There is a row of different shops and I always assumed the parking at front was shared.

It was a Sunday evening and most of the other shops were shut.

We didn't notice that they have now painted yellow lines to mark bays/spaces in front of all the shops except the Co-Op, and I had parked in one of these spaces.

I didn't see ANY signs except one when leaving the area and all I could make out on that was the words "Private Land".

We went back after receiving the PCN letter and there are NO signs as you drive into the parking area.

There are other signs, but they are attached to all the shops except the Co-Op.

Theses signs were in darkness as the shops were shut and it was dark, they were behind us when we were parked in the space, and we didn't see them because we didn't go up to any of the other shops, which were shut (sorry, I said that already).

There is one sign attached to a lamp post (probably illegally and/or without permission from the council) in front of the parking spaces, which we didn't see, probably because it is too high to see from sitting inside a car.

That sign anyway has a big blue square with a white P on it, and the small print refers the reader to the other signs.

We have photos of the signage, although none are from the actual night in question (because we didn't know we were going to need any photos....)

The blurb on the signs says the land is private, and that the bays marked with yellow are only for the use of patrons of the shops listed

(Machine Mart, Premier Kitchens, McColls/Post Office and Golden Wok).

I don't understand how they can tell which shops anyone who parks is using?

We did think that maybe because the other shops were shut it is assumed anyone who parks is contravening their rules, but found out the Golden Wok was open....

Are they using CCTV to follow on film anyone who parks there and see where they go?

Is this legal?

 

One other thing to mention, is that the "Period of Parking" quoted on the letter has a "From" time later than the "To" time.

They clearly got the two times (18 minutes apart) the wrong way round when they wrote the letter.

Is this grounds to have it cancelled?

 

And if not, any advice on how to proceed with this gratefully received.

Thanks in advance.

[dx100uk]

welcome to CAG

can you scan up the NTK to one multipage PDF please

read upload

[unquietsoul]

Ok, I'm trying to do this now, I've never done this before!

 

I have the info up and I'm scrubbing out the personal/identifying info, ref numbers etc.

I have scrubbed the number plate off the photo of the car

- but presumably they could identify me from the pic of the car?

 

Actually in the photo of the car you can see two people

- the driver and a passenger who look like they've just got out of the car.

Should I scrub them off the pic as well?

[FTMDave]

Don't worry, you won't be paying a bean.

 

Rubbish signage, you could have been in the Golden Wok, etc., but wait for the experts in the morning.

 

If you have time, have a look at some of the threads on the PPC Successes sticky, the regulars here have helped people like you to give the parking companies a good kicking on 200+ occasions.

[FTMDave]

Ok, I'm trying to do this now, I've never done this before! I have the info up and I'm scrubbing out the personal/identifying info, ref numbers etc. I have scrubbed the number plate off the photo of the car - but presumably they could identify me from the pic of the car? Actually in the photo of the car you can see two people - the driver and a passenger who look like they've just got out of the car. Should I scrub them off the pic as well?

 

I think if you get rid of personal info. and barcodes, then the rest is fine.

[dx100uk]

anpr are not face recog…cameras

just pers id that's all.

[unquietsoul]

ok, it was quite easy so far. scanned, opened in paint, scrubbed info and converted to PDF.

 

I will have to upload tomorrow now.

[lookinforinfo]

It's good that you didn't challenge the ticket as you would probably have divulged that you were the driver had you been driving.

You would then have lost the protection of POFA.

 

I take it this is a free car park as you have not mentioned a ticket machine being there.

By the sound of it you were trespassing if the COOP was not included in their system whatever the reason they put on your ticket.

 

Once we see the NTK and the wording on the Notices and where they are situated we can give you more information on how to avoid paying.

You should also check the Local council Planning dept to see if they do have permission to erect their signs and use ANPR.

Most companies don't bother which is good for the motorist.

 

Please do not write to NPE or any of their unregulated debt collectors who may start to send you some cunningly worded invitation to pay them large sums of money for doing nothing and trying to convince that you owe money when you do not.

Keep your powder dry and give them both barrels

when the time is right which may not be for a while.

 

I suppose the COOP must have a separate car park nearby as it would seem strange for there to be one there on which they are not included....

Edited December 12, 2018 by dx100uk
spacing

[unquietsoul]

There is parking space in front of the row of shops.

It has been equally shared by all the shops for as long as I have been parking there for the Co-Op (about 10 years).

 

The new yellow line bays are in now in front of all the shops except the Co-Op.

The small print on the signs says the marked bays are for patrons of the shops listed (Machine Mart, Premier Kitchens, McColls/Post Office and Golden Wok) only and is free for half an hour.

 

just trying to upload pdf now....

NPE_NTK_Nov_2018.pdf

Edited December 12, 2018 by dx100uk
merge/quote

[dx100uk]

that's interesting

it looks like CCTV capture not ANPR

I wonder if the have permission for that pole..i doubt it!!]

[unquietsoul]

3 signs from the site.

 

The first is attached to a gate set back a little from the shops either side that closes what looks like an alley between them.

Taken from about 2 feet away

 

The second is attached to the second shop in the row (Machine Mart), next to the Co-Op.

There are more of these further along, attached to the other shops (but nothing on the Co-Op).

Also taken from about 2 feet away.

 

The third is the sign attached to the lamp post.

NPE signs.pdf

[ericsbrother]

Oh god, another of Ashley Cohen and his mate's companies dressed up as something else, presumably to fool landowners who have read up on his activities into signing them up.

 

Piccies could be taken from a bedroom window but the important thing is that the signage says patron of a number of shops and the driver could have gone to anyone of them I note that the passenger door is open in one of the piccies, the passenger is not a party to any contract so they can go where they like. Now I presume the driver got oput, saw that McColls was shut so wnt to the CoOp instead. This makes the driver a patron of one of the listed shops but just sufferd a frustrated visit due to it being closed. the parking contract doesnt say you cant go to the coop as well and if it did it would be an unfair contract!

 

Also I not one of the signs is attached to the lamppost belonging to the council. Ask the council if they have granted planning permission for NPE to plaster their graffiti all over the public highway and if they havent you can take the signs down yourself and return them to NPE vis the nearest recycling point (bin). If the signs dont have the necessary permissions then the parking co is committing a criminal act and you cnat form a criminal compact with them even if you wanted to.

 

Go there in daylight and get some piccies of the cameras if you can see them. Report to council if they are using CCTV from dwelling window as that will be a misuse of the equipment and require the individual to register their activity with the ICO. Now if it is someone whio lives there getting a bung for each set of piccies leading to the issue of a ticket then the business they run from the shop is in jeopardy of getting clobbered for this activity. Let us know what the business is that the images were taken from.

 

Lastly you may well find that the landowner hasnt granted permission for NPE to be there at all, chances are there are a number of different owners as there are different occupiers. Again, ask the council- either planning or business rates people will know.

 

Whilst you set about this task dont be bothering to contact the parking co, they are members of the IAS and so you weont get anywhere with reason.

Edited December 13, 2018 by honeybee13
Paras

[unquietsoul]

This would be much easier to deal with if I didn't live an hour's drive from Cambridge, but I will try to get more pics at the weekend.

 

The camera looks like some kind of 360 degree eye in the sky. It is attached to the front of Machine Mart at 181-183 Histon Road.

 

I phoned the council and went round various departments.

 

The City Council planning department are checking if there is any planning application or requirement for planning application for the CCTV camera, and say they will let me know.

 

The County Council have said the sign on the lamp post has already been reported and that it shouldn't be there. The lady advised me not to remove it myself though!

 

Also, the situation on this site has been reported locally on the Cambridgeshire Live website under the headline "Co-op customers are getting fined after new 'ridiculously unclear' parking sign".

[honeybee13]

Good work, UQS. Hopefully you can get some photos too.

 

HB

[unquietsoul]

Also just phoned the council again to try to find out who owns the land and if it is one or several landowners and both the main operator and someone in a business department they put me through to told me to try the land registry.

 

I also presume that they have CCTV film and watch to see where people actually go in order to prove whether people are "patrons" or "non Patrons".

 

One of the staff in the Golden Wok told me "if you park there and go to the Co-Op first and then here (the Golden Wok) you will get a ticket (NTK), but if you come here (Golden Wok) first and then the Co-Op you don't get one"

 

I don't have any receipt from any other shop, so wouldn't be able to prove that I was a patron of one of their businesses in court.

Edited December 13, 2018 by unquietsoul

[dx100uk]

that is against the law end of...

 

dx

[unquietsoul]

Here is the picture from the news article online (I can't post a link to it).

 

I think you can clearly see the lack of clear signage!

 

I can't make out the camera in this pic, I think it is just out of the shot at the top left

 

Which bit is against the law?

The watching which shop people go into and ticketing accordingly?

If it wasn't it should be.

[dx100uk]

well under what law are they saying they can..if you don't shop here 1st you are trespassing..well they don't own the land so they cant decide on trespass, not by issuing a parking ticket anyhow..

 

bit like parking in a shopping centre and leaving the site

lots of like thread already here about that

read what EB says about it

[ericsbrother]

One thing you must get clear in your head, you dont have to buy anything from anywhere to be a patron, just looking through the window is good enough.

Do not invent reasons to fail but research how to fight off this claim.

 

We have already told you about enough points to sink this without trace but us knowing what is what isnt enough because we arent going to get sued so you need to know as well so you can then deal with whatever comes at you.

 

Also why are you asking the staff of the Golden Wok anything?

they are the most likely people to have photographed your car so they are the enemy at this point.

Anyone can remove an illegal sign on a lamppost, what are NPE going to do about it?

They cant complain can they?

 

Now read up on things and stick to doing what is advised and that way you wont trip yourself up.

So next stop Valuations Agency.

They deal with business rates etc so know who owns what and will tell you without having to pay them £6 a pop for part of the info as land Registry will.

Edited December 14, 2018 by dx100uk
spacing

[unquietsoul]

sorry if i'm doing this all wrong, i have no idea what i'm doing really, i am new to this forum, and have only ever been on one forum before. I know nothing about the law, claims, courts etc. and this is my first encounter with one of these parking "companies".

 

How do i research fighting the claim? What do I need to read up on?

 

I have read through the stickies and browsed the threads here, and other sites like money saving expert, parking prankster etc.

 

To be honest I'm a bit confused - I haven't replied to the NTK, as per advice, but according to advice on one of the stickies I'm supposed not to ignore it, but to respond, and respond robustly.... what should I do?

[dx100uk]

not until you get a letter of claim you don't no.

but research is the key.

there are 1000's of threads here in this very same forum.

stick with CAG and PP.

 

use the search CAG box of the top red toolbar

[unquietsoul]

re: "next stop Valuations Agency.

They deal with business rates etc so know who owns what and will tell you without having to pay them"

 

sorry, i don't really understand this,

I searched "Valuations Agency" and went round and round on a government website

- I think I can make a FOI request, but have no idea how to go about this.

 

.. I found a link saying "full list of public sector organisations covered by the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)."

but it takes me to a site about legislation.... there's a link to

"request information from some public sector organisations" but that takes me back to the local council website or a veeeery long list of government departments....

[ericsbrother]

well i found it first go

 

look at the gov websites and valuation-office-agency.

 

You cant make a foi request for this so dont try.

just phone them up and ask, they are quite helpful especially when they think that there may be money owed by a business for using that land and not telling them!

 

anyways, you are not ignoring it, you are doing your research, learning things and getting your ammunition ready for a fight if they want one.

We say dont contact them because doing so at this stage will be counter-productive, especially when you have limited information to use in any communication.

 

No need to make a special journey, just bear in mind that the next time you are that way we would like

 

clearer pictures of the signs so they can be read ( cant read them properly at present) and

 

pictures of the entrance to that service road from the public highway and

pictures of the front of the building the pictures of your car were taken

as I dont think it was from the camear on Machine Mart judging by the angle it was taken from.

 

If it was someone in the chinese restaurant then they will have to have registered themselves with the ICO to gather and process such personal data and that currently is very unlikely so the parking co is improperly processing unlawfully gathered data ( see MIL collections).

Edited December 15, 2018 by dx100uk
spell/space/merge

[unquietsoul]

Got some more pics of "clear signage" (lack of).

 

this is the first time i have been back in daylight - if i wasn't so annoyed by their stroppy letter, "business model" and the hassle of the whole thing it would be hilarious. Can anyone else see "clear signage"?

 

(1st pic is access to site from public road, 2nd and 3rd continue into site, 4th one is the entry onto the "private land" subject to parking enforcement, 5th I think is the bay my car was parked in, and 6th is same bay looking back towards shops, showing that not only were there no signs on the way into that bay, but none were visible on the way from the drivers side of the car to the pavement.)

 

also got some pics of camera, as requested.

 

sorry, didn't take close up pics of signs today, will have to get those next time.

pic of car wasn't taken from chinese takeaway as that is right up the far end.

 

car was parked in first bay, outside machine mart, close to co-op.

you can also see the camera in the 3rd pic of the first pdf i posted.

 

have read through quite a lot of other threads in last week.

I get that the appeal to ppc and ias is pointless,

but i would have thought (having zero experience of this kind of thing) if it goes to court it would look better if i had been through the "proper" channels ie. appeal process?

Or is the court not interested in that, just if the original "charge" was valid or not?

pix.pdf

[dx100uk]

merged posts and pictures of 13MB to 2Mb size.

 

in PPC claims there is no such thing as proper chain/channels, they are their own ole boys club not anything regulated.