reclaiming charges court claim - The "Claim Too vague" defence and guide to amending a claim

[mum23kids]

Call the court and ask them how you go about amending your claim.

Then come back to this site and read the step by step guide and FAQ's.

Once you know what needs to be changed, post it on this site and others will help you,

Best regards

 

 

hi

 

thanks to all that replied i am so... thick!!, i have finally received defence papers that lloyds sent back to court, ready here we go....

 

firstly lloyds put £750 goodwill gesture into my account - but they do not state this on defence counterclaim they have crossed box - they dispute the full amount claimed as shown on claimform! ....is this in my favour?

 

defence

This defence is served without prejudice to the defendants contecntion that the poc is insufficiently particularised and is embarrassing. the defendant reserves the right to plead further to the poc once they are sufficiently particularised

The defendant will object that the poc in this action disclose no reasonable cause of action against the defendant and makes no specific allegations against the defendant as to why the defendant should be liable to the claimant for the amount claimed.

The poc do not comply with Rule 16.4 1a of the civil procedure rules as "amongst other things" they do not identify the account in question that appears to form the subject of these proceedings or indeed show how hte sum of £2845.15 is arrived at and the poc are too vague. the poc shows no resonable grounds for bringing the claim.

The claimant should, therefore, be ordered to file and serve an amended claim to set out the full particulars of the bank account and the charges they are seeking to recover, identifying each charge, the date and amount of the charge and why the claimant in each case the allege it is a disproportionate penalty and thus unlawful.

The defendant should then be given the opportunity to defend the proceedings further.

please help, also with the above i received from the northampton county court, a court of transfer to my local court, and that it is ordered that

 

"judge filing of an allocation questionnaire be dispensed with in this case unless the district, at teh court of transfer orders otherwise"

 

What does this mean!

 

Any help with regards to the above would be very gratefully received (i am desperate!)

 

Do i have a time limit to this, do i say amount money put into account, as this was done before they wrote there defence out, what happens now

 

thanks

[v2schneider]

There is a lot of to-ing and fro-ing here about whether it is necessary for the claimant to pay the £35 to amend the POC if it has been poorly drafted (as seems likely if the claimant has not first read and used the template here). Why pre-empt the court if the judge is likely to direct the claimant to provide further and better particulars? Why incur further unnecessary chargeable items? As I once remember a barrister telling me, "Remember, your objective is to get your money back, not prove a point."

[GaryH]

I agree to a point, although that much depends on what the POC consist of in the first place.

 

I agree its highly unlikely that the court would strike out without warning, but its a possibility in claims containing something like "claim for bank charges" as the statement of case. In those situations I would certainly recommend an amendment.

 

mum23kids,

 

can you post up what you used as the POC when you submitted your claim please?

[mum23kids]

I agree to a point, although that much depends on what the POC consist of in the first place.

 

I agree its highly unlikely that the court would strike out without warning, but its a possibility in claims containing something like "claim for bank charges" as the statement of case. In those situations I would certainly recommend an amendment.

 

mum23kids,

 

can you post up what you used as the POC when you submitted your claim please?

 

 

hi

 

thanks for your help my poc said

 

"For bank charges, this is based on the unfair terms in consumer contract regulations as i believe these default charges are unfair and not proportionate to there costs."

 

Do i have a time limit to amend, have i got it right that other than the amendment, i am waiting for the court to get in touch now.

 

mum23kids

[skyrocket123]

I helped a friend and filled in the MCOL with the template POC from here. We didnt send a schedule of charges though. Does this mean we have messed up the claim? It's always worked fine when I have filed before but now people seem to be running into problems and I'm a little worried we have messed up his claim.

[jackal123uk]

Hi all,

 

I recieved this defence this morning and was quite worried til I read this thread and discovered it was a fairly routine trick. From the looks of it I got word-for-word the same defence as mum23kids did.

 

Since I only used the CAG templates am I right in thinking there's no need to ammend?

 

Another thing that's confusing me is the covering letter, it reads:

 

"To all parties

 

A defence to this claim has been filed

 

The claim has been transfered to the court covering the area where the defendent lives or carries on business.

 

Please read the accompanying documents carefully and note that the allocation questionnaire chould be returned to the Portsmouth County Court.

 

All further communication should be addressed to:

 

[Portsmouth County Court]"

 

except the underlined passage has been lined through with a biro. Does this mean that the AQ should not be sent the Portsmouth or merely that the documents reffered to aren't included?? As the only document included was a leaflet on mediation...

 

Also, just like mum23kids, Lloyds kindly deposited a £750 "goodwill gesture" into my account in the time between filing the claim and receiving the defence. Do I have to tell the courts this and effectively ammend the claim amount??

 

Anyone any ideas???

 

Thanks

 

Karl...

[Michael Browne]

Mcol are dispensing with AQ's, which is why that is crossed out and no AQ enclosed.

 

As the only document included was a leaflet on mediation...

 

See here:

Mediation - a bad idea

[jackal123uk]

Thanks Michael,

 

I didn't know the AQ was supposed to to be enclosed, but re-reading the letter it makes perfect sense. I found the links for the online pdf versions, I'll just send one of them shall I? Only thing is, is it N149 or N150??

 

Thanks again for the help

 

Karl

[Michael Browne]

Dispensing with the Aq means you don't have to submit one. See here:

Allocation Questionnaire - Dispensing With the AQ

Is your court dispensing with the Allocation Questionnaire?

 

Allocation Questionnaire - Dispensing With AQ: Action to Take

New---after 28 Days - Maybe No Aq!!!!!!!

[meagain]

Neither. MCOL (and some local CCs) have done away with AQs for bank charges claims. If you are over the £1500 (?) threshold, you will still need to pay the allocation fee.

 

(Note to self: don't leave posts open for 20 minutes before submitting)

[mgp]

Out of my depth........

 

I filed my claim to MCOL but didnt send a schedule of charges , this has now been transferred to my local court, should I now send this schedule to them.

 

Also made a slight mistake and claiming for 3 months prior to 19.2.2001, Lloyds are now defending on these grounds ,saying I am unable to verify these charges (I actually took this info from statements they sent me) should I delete these 3 months when sending my schedule or is the original amount set in stone and by doing this will it be thrown out of court?

 

As the AQ has been dispensed with is there anything else I need to send? and who is SC&M

[remus]

mgp, SC&M (Sechiari Clark & Mitchell) are the solicitors working for LTSB.

read MB's post 134 re the AQ.

Has no-one responded to your thread re the extra 3 months?

Also if you read this thread from the start, it will answer your questions, ie about making an amendment to your claim.

its all there,

just read read and read some:p more

Happy claiming:)

[Ladybette]

 

Filled in Claim form on MCOL – I used Money Saving Expert for guidance filling in the form and I’m worried I’ve messed up.

 

This is what I put;

 

• Between 08/09/03 and 7/05/05 the defendant debited numerous charges from the Claimants account.

• The charges are an unfair penalty under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, because they are a disproportionately high sum in compensation compared to the cost of the purported breach.

• Under the law of penalties, the charges are an unlawful ‘extravagant’ penalty.

• Under the County Courts Act, the claimant is entitled to interest of 8% per annum from the date they were deprived of the money. This totals £63.13 accruing at the daily rate of 0.021% until judgment or payment.

p

 

 

This is also what I did and now am worried that I need to amend my claim for being too vague. I have had my notice of transfer and a standard ( i think) 9 point defence and there is no mention of my poc being too vague. I've tried to call the court several times and it just rings out. Is it a case of "if in doubt, amend"? or will that work against me? Would it be better to amend now or wait and see if the court requests more info?

 

I also wonder if the 0.021 is right? I keep reading to multiply your charges by 0.00022 to get a daily rate, is this the same thing?

I did my charges on the calculator on MSE originally to send claim etc and then have just used a spreadsheet on CAG to smarten it up and the charges total is the same but the interest is alot different, normal difference or another reason to amend?

I'm getting stressed now as I thought following the steps on MSE meant I was doing it all right, now I'm not so sure! Any advice would be welcome.

[GaryH]

I'd just wait personally. Your particulars aren't that bad and if Lloyds haven't objected then its unlikely the court will. Then even if they do you will just be asked for further information.

 

In this case an amendment is unnecessary IMHO.

[RCBROWN1981]

Really?

Even though I didnt put the account number etc on the POC.

 

Actually what I did was as soon as I realised what the correct POC should have been I sent a covering letter with the correct POC and copies of statements to MCOL and asked for them to be attached to the claim - which they were because they came back with my notice of transfer stapled to the back stamped by the court.

 

Do you think this is sufficient then? and if the court queries the POC I can just refer them to this?

 

Thanks in advance

[RCBROWN1981]

Sorry - ignore the above post - I thought I was responding to my own thread

[Michael Browne]

• • Your account number
    
  • Date account was opened
    
  • The date from when your charges began
    
  • That you have already supplied a schedule of charges
    
  • That you will be supplying a further copy
    
  • That the defendant has levied charges and interest
    
  • That the defendants contractual term which allows charges is unfair and contrary to common law
    
  • Total amount claimed
    
  • Section 69 statutory interest statement
    
  • The alternative argument - S.15 Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982
    
  • Costs

In an ideal world this is the minimium a POC should contain, so only 4 out of 11 ain't so hot.

You could amend, but since Lloyds have only submitted their standard defence, I'd wait and see if the court directs you to. At least that way it won't cost you £35

[Ladybette]

Thanks GaryH and Michael Browne! I had put the total amount too so its 5 out of 11! You've really settled my mind. So if the court ask for more detail, I just send any details they ask for? Is that then an amendment or a freebie Now I guess I just wait for a date from Lambeth, They have dispensed with the AQ. I'll try to call them again on Monday as I'm not sure when I pay the next fee. Thanks again, guys.

[remus]

There is a lot of to-ing and fro-ing here about whether it is necessary for the claimant to pay the £35 to amend the POC if it has been poorly drafted (as seems likely if the claimant has not first read and used the template here). Why pre-empt the court if the judge is likely to direct the claimant to provide further and better particulars? Why incur further unnecessary chargeable items? As I once remember a barrister telling me, "Remember, your objective is to get your money back, not prove a point."

Back in the heady days of April, I had the defence Vague etc, exactly the same as mum23kids (hope that's your age!).

I filled in my AQ, and put in all the points of law etc in section G, I was told by the court to do this (no amendment).

I have not had the goodwill payment, but have a court date for the 25th July, (judge was obviously happy to proceed).

It seems like [problem] are trying to scare people off, by giving the vague defense, and giving a goodwill £750, a lot of people will think I've not done this right it will get thrown out, best take the offer and run.

I am getting the bundle up, for my day in court, (yes I did panic about their defence,) but the Judge has ignored their request for an amended claim, as he ignored my suggested draft directions, and at the end of the day I am claiming exactly the same as everyone else, who have got all their unlawful charges back:D .

I understand I had the advantage of the AQ which is being done away with, in some cases, but even that must point to the fact the courts do not see the point of all the to-ing and fro-ing (re above), and it will be the day in court were you plead your case, (the Judge knowing that a full offer will possibly be made in the mean time).

Still very wary, but lots of good advice and help getting through it:)

Happy to be corrected:p

[Antoniab]

Hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I have a query.

 

When I file my claim on the N1 form at court, is this the form where I should be including a list of all unlawful bank charges, account number etc? I've already filled the N1 form in, but have just put on such and such a date x amount was taken from the Claimant's account blah blah, unlawful charges, then total amount claimed.

[remus]

Antb, have you filled in the N1, re the template ie: the claimant has account etc? unfair terms 1999 etc? if not I will direct you to the post you need.

You do not need to include anything at this point, that comes later once you get a court date, and have to do the bundle (statements etc).

[remus]

Antb, have posted on your thread,

Happy claiming:D

read read and read some:p more

[mgp]

remus

many thanks for your reply

The court issued a stay in order to allow both myself and SC & M to try and settle before a court date was issued. This end of this stay is 1st July! I was then advised (via this site) to write saying that I would only claim for the last 6 years (a copy to the court) as this would show I was willing to try and settle, I have not sent an amendement . I have actually written to SC&M 3 times but of course no reply. I am now concerned that my claim will be struck out because of the pre 6 years part (amounts to below £100)

MGP

[remus]

mgp, will reply on your thread sunday, why would the judge strike you out, because you had claimed unlawful charges a bit further back than by law you are allowed to? He would just say your claim would cover the amount for the time limit, and no more.

Stick to your thread, every time you post,(on your very own thread) we get notified via email or cp, so we can all read and follow what is happening, you are getting advice from good people, we are here to help, best way is sticking to your thread, so we can understand what is happening, and how best to advice you on the next step.

you're doing Ok

[Antoniab]

Thanks, Remus, will have a look on my thread.

 

Antonia