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    • Which Court have you received the claim from ? Civil National Business CEntre Name of the Claimant ? Lowell Portfolio i Ltd How many defendant's  joint or self ? Self   Date of issue –  15 Feb 2024 Particulars of Claim What is the claim for – the reason they have issued the claim?  The claim is for the sum of £922 due by the Defendant under and agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for a Capital One account with an account reference of [number with 16 digits] The Defendant failed to maintain contractual payments required by the agreement and a Default Notice was served under s.87(1) of the Consumer Credit ACt 1974 which has not been complied with. The debt was legally assigned to the claimant on 16-06-23, notice of which has been given to the defendant. The claim includes statutory interest under S.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum from the date of assignment to the date of the issue of these proceedings in the sum of £49.15 The Claimant claims the sum of £972 What is the total value of the claim? £1112 Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? I dont know the details of the PAPDC to know if it was pursuant to paragraph 3, but I did receive a Letter of Claim with a questionaire/form to fill. Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? No Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? Credit Card When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? no Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? Online Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? Yes Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Assigned/purchaser Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? I was aware, I'm not certain I received a 'Notice of Assignment' from Capital One but may have been informed the account had been sold without such a title on the letter? Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? Yes Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? Not since the debt purchase, and not from Capital One. Why did you cease payments? I can't remember - it was the tail end of the pandemic and I may not have had enough income to keep up payments - I am self-employed and work in the event industry - at that time. I also had a bank account that didn't allow direct debits and may have just forgotten payments and became annoyed at fines for late payments. What was the date of your last payment? Appears to be 20/4/2022 Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? No Here is my Defence: Defence - 1. The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are vague and generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made. 2. Paragraph 1 is noted. I have in the past had an agreement with Capital One but do not recognise this specific account number or recollect any outstanding debt and have therefore requested clarification by way of a CPR 31.14 and section 78 request.. 3. Paragraph 2 is denied. I am unaware of having been served with a Default Notice pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974. 4. Paragraph 3 is denied. I am unaware of any legal assignment or Notice of Assignment pursuant to the Law and Property Act 1925 Section 136(1) 5. The Defendant has sent a request by way of a section 78 pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974, for a copy of the agreement, the Claimant has yet to comply and remains in default of said request. 6. A further request has been made via CPR 31.14 to the Claimants solicitor, requesting disclosure of documents on which the Claimant is basing their claim. The Claimant has not complied and to date nothing has been received. 7. It is therefore not accepted with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant and the Claimant is put to strict proof to: a) show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement and; b) show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed for and; c) show the nature of the breach and evidence by way of a Default Notice pursuant to sec 88 CCA1974 d) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim 8. As per Civil Procedure 16.5 it is expected that the claimants prove the allegation that the money is owed 9. On the alternative, as the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of section 136 of the Law of Property Act and section 82A of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 10. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief. .................. Please note that I had to write a defence quite quickly as I hit the deadline. At the time of writing the defence, I hadn't been able to find correspondence from Capital One, but had since found default letter etc. I submitted CCA request and CPR 31.14. However, I didn't get any proof of postage or use registered post for the CPR (an oversight) but did with the CCA request. I received a pack which included a letter from Overdales, going over the defence I'd filed, as well as letters of Lowells and reprints of letters from Capital One. But I have no idea if this pack is in response to the CCA request or the CPR ! I would have expected two separate responses ... although I do know they are both the same company. Looking over the pack today, and looking through old emails .. I find some discrepancies in the Capital One default letters (notice of default and Claim of default). They are both dated *before* an email I have stating that a default can be avoided. The one single page of agreement sent (so not the full agreement) has a 16 digit number at the top in small print, next to 'Capital One' which corresponds to a number called 'PURN' printed at the top of each of the 10 pages of ins and outs of the account (they're not official statements, but a list of monthly goings) yet no mention anywhere on either of the account number. I cant really scan them at the moment - I can later tomorrow, but that will be after the mediation call I'm sure. I guess I may be on my own for this mediation ... I am not certain the CCA request has been satisfied .. or if the CPR has been . And then I appear to have evidence that the Default notices provided are fabricated ? Yet, I do have (elsewhere ... not at home) Default letters from Capital One I can check ..
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reclaiming charges court claim - The "Claim Too vague" defence and guide to amending a claim


GaryH
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Thanks

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Call the court and ask them how you go about amending your claim.

Then come back to this site and read the step by step guide and FAQ's.

Once you know what needs to be changed, post it on this site and others will help you,

Best regards

 

 

hi

 

thanks to all that replied i am so... thick!!, i have finally received defence papers that lloyds sent back to court, ready here we go....

 

firstly lloyds put £750 goodwill gesture into my account - but they do not state this on defence counterclaim they have crossed box - they dispute the full amount claimed as shown on claimform! ....is this in my favour?

 

defence

This defence is served without prejudice to the defendants contecntion that the poc is insufficiently particularised and is embarrassing. the defendant reserves the right to plead further to the poc once they are sufficiently particularised

The defendant will object that the poc in this action disclose no reasonable cause of action against the defendant and makes no specific allegations against the defendant as to why the defendant should be liable to the claimant for the amount claimed.

The poc do not comply with Rule 16.4 1a of the civil procedure rules as "amongst other things" they do not identify the account in question that appears to form the subject of these proceedings or indeed show how hte sum of £2845.15 is arrived at and the poc are too vague. the poc shows no resonable grounds for bringing the claim.

The claimant should, therefore, be ordered to file and serve an amended claim to set out the full particulars of the bank account and the charges they are seeking to recover, identifying each charge, the date and amount of the charge and why the claimant in each case the allege it is a disproportionate penalty and thus unlawful.

The defendant should then be given the opportunity to defend the proceedings further.

please help, also with the above i received from the northampton county court, a court of transfer to my local court, and that it is ordered that

 

"judge filing of an allocation questionnaire be dispensed with in this case unless the district, at teh court of transfer orders otherwise"

 

What does this mean!

 

Any help with regards to the above would be very gratefully received (i am desperate!)

 

Do i have a time limit to this, do i say amount money put into account, as this was done before they wrote there defence out, what happens now

 

thanks

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There is a lot of to-ing and fro-ing here about whether it is necessary for the claimant to pay the £35 to amend the POC if it has been poorly drafted (as seems likely if the claimant has not first read and used the template here). Why pre-empt the court if the judge is likely to direct the claimant to provide further and better particulars? Why incur further unnecessary chargeable items? As I once remember a barrister telling me, "Remember, your objective is to get your money back, not prove a point."

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I agree to a point, although that much depends on what the POC consist of in the first place.

 

I agree its highly unlikely that the court would strike out without warning, but its a possibility in claims containing something like "claim for bank charges" as the statement of case. In those situations I would certainly recommend an amendment.

 

mum23kids,

 

can you post up what you used as the POC when you submitted your claim please?

Please remember to DONATE! Help CAG keep up the fight!

 

 

Any advice or opinion is offered informally & without liability. Use your own judgment and if in doubt seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.

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I agree to a point, although that much depends on what the POC consist of in the first place.

 

I agree its highly unlikely that the court would strike out without warning, but its a possibility in claims containing something like "claim for bank charges" as the statement of case. In those situations I would certainly recommend an amendment.

 

mum23kids,

 

can you post up what you used as the POC when you submitted your claim please?

 

 

hi

 

thanks for your help my poc said

 

"For bank charges, this is based on the unfair terms in consumer contract regulations as i believe these default charges are unfair and not proportionate to there costs."

 

Do i have a time limit to amend, have i got it right that other than the amendment, i am waiting for the court to get in touch now.

 

mum23kids

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I helped a friend and filled in the MCOL with the template POC from here. We didnt send a schedule of charges though. Does this mean we have messed up the claim? It's always worked fine when I have filed before but now people seem to be running into problems and I'm a little worried we have messed up his claim.

BOS - Prelim letter del 19/5/06 LBA del. no response - filed 12/06

Clydesdale Financial Services - Gave them their chances off to court we go!

HSBC - Watch out I'm coming after you next!

 

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Hi all,

 

I recieved this defence this morning and was quite worried til I read this thread and discovered it was a fairly routine trick. From the looks of it I got word-for-word the same defence as mum23kids did.

 

Since I only used the CAG templates am I right in thinking there's no need to ammend?

 

Another thing that's confusing me is the covering letter, it reads:

 

"To all parties

 

A defence to this claim has been filed

 

The claim has been transfered to the court covering the area where the defendent lives or carries on business.

 

Please read the accompanying documents carefully and note that the allocation questionnaire chould be returned to the Portsmouth County Court.

 

All further communication should be addressed to:

 

[Portsmouth County Court]"

 

except the underlined passage has been lined through with a biro. Does this mean that the AQ should not be sent the Portsmouth or merely that the documents reffered to aren't included?? As the only document included was a leaflet on mediation...

 

Also, just like mum23kids, Lloyds kindly deposited a £750 "goodwill gesture" into my account in the time between filing the claim and receiving the defence. Do I have to tell the courts this and effectively ammend the claim amount??

 

Anyone any ideas???

 

Thanks

 

Karl...

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Thanks Michael,

 

I didn't know the AQ was supposed to to be enclosed, but re-reading the letter it makes perfect sense. I found the links for the online pdf versions, I'll just send one of them shall I? Only thing is, is it N149 or N150??

 

Thanks again for the help

 

Karl

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Neither. MCOL (and some local CCs) have done away with AQs for bank charges claims. If you are over the £1500 (?) threshold, you will still need to pay the allocation fee.

 

(Note to self: don't leave posts open for 20 minutes before submitting)

HSBCLloyds TSBcontractual interestNew Tax Creditscoming for you?NTL/Virgin Media

 

Never give in ... Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. Churchill, 1941

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Out of my depth........

 

I filed my claim to MCOL but didnt send a schedule of charges , this has now been transferred to my local court, should I now send this schedule to them.

 

Also made a slight mistake and claiming for 3 months prior to 19.2.2001, Lloyds are now defending on these grounds ,saying I am unable to verify these charges (I actually took this info from statements they sent me) should I delete these 3 months when sending my schedule or is the original amount set in stone and by doing this will it be thrown out of court?

 

As the AQ has been dispensed with is there anything else I need to send? and who is SC&M

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mgp, SC&M (Sechiari Clark & Mitchell) are the solicitors working for LTSB.

read MB's post 134 re the AQ.

Has no-one responded to your thread re the extra 3 months?

Also if you read this thread from the start, it will answer your questions, ie about making an amendment to your claim.

its all there,

just read read and read some:p more

Happy claiming:)

LTSB court date 25/7/07

17/7/07 I WON I WON I WON!!!!:p :grin:

HSBC court date 11/9/07 (stayed)

CapOne lba 7/1/08-15/3/08 WON.

Citicards lba 14/1/08

 

Read Read and Read Some:razz: More

 

If I've been helpful in anyway please tip my scales:rolleyes:

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts.

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  • 3 weeks later...

 

Filled in Claim form on MCOL – I used Money Saving Expert for guidance filling in the form and I’m worried I’ve messed up.

 

This is what I put;

 

  • Between 08/09/03 and 7/05/05 the defendant debited numerous charges from the Claimants account.

  • The charges are an unfair penalty under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, because they are a disproportionately high sum in compensation compared to the cost of the purported breach.

  • Under the law of penalties, the charges are an unlawful ‘extravagant’ penalty.

  • Under the County Courts Act, the claimant is entitled to interest of 8% per annum from the date they were deprived of the money. This totals £63.13 accruing at the daily rate of 0.021% until judgment or payment.

p

 

 

This is also what I did and now am worried that I need to amend my claim for being too vague. I have had my notice of transfer and a standard ( i think) 9 point defence and there is no mention of my poc being too vague. I've tried to call the court several times and it just rings out. Is it a case of "if in doubt, amend"? or will that work against me? Would it be better to amend now or wait and see if the court requests more info?

 

I also wonder if the 0.021 is right? I keep reading to multiply your charges by 0.00022 to get a daily rate, is this the same thing?

I did my charges on the calculator on MSE originally to send claim etc and then have just used a spreadsheet on CAG to smarten it up and the charges total is the same but the interest is alot different, normal difference or another reason to amend?

I'm getting stressed now as I thought following the steps on MSE meant I was doing it all right, now I'm not so sure! Any advice would be welcome.

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I'd just wait personally. Your particulars aren't that bad and if Lloyds haven't objected then its unlikely the court will. Then even if they do you will just be asked for further information.

 

In this case an amendment is unnecessary IMHO.

Please remember to DONATE! Help CAG keep up the fight!

 

 

Any advice or opinion is offered informally & without liability. Use your own judgment and if in doubt seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.

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Really?

Even though I didnt put the account number etc on the POC.

 

Actually what I did was as soon as I realised what the correct POC should have been I sent a covering letter with the correct POC and copies of statements to MCOL and asked for them to be attached to the claim - which they were because they came back with my notice of transfer stapled to the back stamped by the court.

 

Do you think this is sufficient then? and if the court queries the POC I can just refer them to this?

 

Thanks in advance

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    • Your account number
    • Date account was opened
    • The date from when your charges began
    • That you have already supplied a schedule of charges
    • That you will be supplying a further copy
    • That the defendant has levied charges and interest
    • That the defendants contractual term which allows charges is unfair and contrary to common law
    • Total amount claimed
    • Section 69 statutory interest statement
    • The alternative argument - S.15 Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982
    • Costs

In an ideal world this is the minimium a POC should contain, so only 4 out of 11 ain't so hot.

You could amend, but since Lloyds have only submitted their standard defence, I'd wait and see if the court directs you to. At least that way it won't cost you £35

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Thanks GaryH and Michael Browne! I had put the total amount too so its 5 out of 11! :) You've really settled my mind. So if the court ask for more detail, I just send any details they ask for? Is that then an amendment or a freebie ;) Now I guess I just wait for a date from Lambeth, They have dispensed with the AQ. I'll try to call them again on Monday as I'm not sure when I pay the next fee. Thanks again, guys.

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There is a lot of to-ing and fro-ing here about whether it is necessary for the claimant to pay the £35 to amend the POC if it has been poorly drafted (as seems likely if the claimant has not first read and used the template here). Why pre-empt the court if the judge is likely to direct the claimant to provide further and better particulars? Why incur further unnecessary chargeable items? As I once remember a barrister telling me, "Remember, your objective is to get your money back, not prove a point."

Back in the heady days of April, I had the defence Vague etc, exactly the same as mum23kids (hope that's your age!).

I filled in my AQ, and put in all the points of law etc in section G, I was told by the court to do this (no amendment).

I have not had the goodwill payment, but have a court date for the 25th July, (judge was obviously happy to proceed).

It seems like [problem] are trying to scare people off, by giving the vague defense, and giving a goodwill £750, a lot of people will think I've not done this right it will get thrown out, best take the offer and run.

I am getting the bundle up, for my day in court, (yes I did panic about their defence,) but the Judge has ignored their request for an amended claim, as he ignored my suggested draft directions, and at the end of the day I am claiming exactly the same as everyone else, who have got all their unlawful charges back:D .

I understand I had the advantage of the AQ which is being done away with, in some cases, but even that must point to the fact the courts do not see the point of all the to-ing and fro-ing (re above), and it will be the day in court were you plead your case, (the Judge knowing that a full offer will possibly be made in the mean time).

Still very wary, but lots of good advice and help getting through it:)

Happy to be corrected:p

LTSB court date 25/7/07

17/7/07 I WON I WON I WON!!!!:p :grin:

HSBC court date 11/9/07 (stayed)

CapOne lba 7/1/08-15/3/08 WON.

Citicards lba 14/1/08

 

Read Read and Read Some:razz: More

 

If I've been helpful in anyway please tip my scales:rolleyes:

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts.

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Hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I have a query.

 

When I file my claim on the N1 form at court, is this the form where I should be including a list of all unlawful bank charges, account number etc? I've already filled the N1 form in, but have just put on such and such a date x amount was taken from the Claimant's account blah blah, unlawful charges, then total amount claimed.

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Antb, have you filled in the N1, re the template ie: the claimant has account etc? unfair terms 1999 etc? if not I will direct you to the post you need.

You do not need to include anything at this point, that comes later once you get a court date, and have to do the bundle (statements etc).

LTSB court date 25/7/07

17/7/07 I WON I WON I WON!!!!:p :grin:

HSBC court date 11/9/07 (stayed)

CapOne lba 7/1/08-15/3/08 WON.

Citicards lba 14/1/08

 

Read Read and Read Some:razz: More

 

If I've been helpful in anyway please tip my scales:rolleyes:

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts.

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Antb, have posted on your thread,

Happy claiming:D

read read and read some:p more

LTSB court date 25/7/07

17/7/07 I WON I WON I WON!!!!:p :grin:

HSBC court date 11/9/07 (stayed)

CapOne lba 7/1/08-15/3/08 WON.

Citicards lba 14/1/08

 

Read Read and Read Some:razz: More

 

If I've been helpful in anyway please tip my scales:rolleyes:

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts.

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remus

many thanks for your reply

The court issued a stay in order to allow both myself and SC & M to try and settle before a court date was issued. This end of this stay is 1st July! I was then advised (via this site) to write saying that I would only claim for the last 6 years (a copy to the court) as this would show I was willing to try and settle, I have not sent an amendement . I have actually written to SC&M 3 times but of course no reply. I am now concerned that my claim will be struck out because of the pre 6 years part (amounts to below £100)

MGP

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mgp, will reply on your thread sunday, why would the judge strike you out, because you had claimed unlawful charges a bit further back than by law you are allowed to? He would just say your claim would cover the amount for the time limit, and no more.:)

Stick to your thread, every time you post,(on your very own thread) we get notified via email or cp, so we can all read and follow what is happening, you are getting advice from good people, we are here to help, best way is sticking to your thread, so we can understand what is happening, and how best to advice you on the next step.:)

you're doing Ok :D

LTSB court date 25/7/07

17/7/07 I WON I WON I WON!!!!:p :grin:

HSBC court date 11/9/07 (stayed)

CapOne lba 7/1/08-15/3/08 WON.

Citicards lba 14/1/08

 

Read Read and Read Some:razz: More

 

If I've been helpful in anyway please tip my scales:rolleyes:

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts.

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