The European Union.....In or Out?

[citizenB]

Apparently Cameron is thinking of postponing the referendum due to the current terrorist threat level after the Brussels attack. Also there are apparently 800,000+ migrants in Libya waiting to cross the Med, to add to the numbers in Turkey and other countries looking to migrate across Europe.

 

Would not surprise me if Cameron decided to postpone until Spring 2017.

 

 

I think if he does then it would have nothing to do with the increased terrorist threat, other than it would make people think more about wanting to leave Europe so we could secure our own borders.

 

 

We have seen how casual France is at the UK/French borders.

 

 

I still cant work out how it is OUR problem when the immigrants are in Calais !

[citizenB]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3511030/EasyJet-Ryanair-s-ing-Brexit-Richard-Branson-says-airlines-fear-destroyed-lose-access-European-airspace-airports.html

 

According to this article Brexit could mean more expensive flights.

 

Also i agree with Richard Branson that Brexit will probably mean the break up of the UK.

 

 

http://www.carbonplanet.com/downloads/Flight_Calculator_Information_v9.2.pdf

 

 

I would love to see air travel reduce - it would appear it contributes far more to green house gasses.

 

 

For a relatively small industry - it has a huge impact on the climate system

 

For example, since 1990, CO2 emissions from international aviation have increased 83 per cent. The aviation industry is expanding rapidly in part due to regulatory and taxing policies that do not reflect the true environmental costs of flying. "Cheap" fares may turn out to be costly in terms of climate change.

 

http://www.davidsuzuki.org/issues/climate-change/science/climate-change-basics/air-travel-and-climate-change/

 

So by getting rid of the budget airlines we could be saving a great deal more than money.

Edited March 27, 2016 by citizenB

[citizenB]

Aviation and global climate change

People living near airports have long suffered from aircraft noise, traffic

congestion and air pollution. Indeed communities around airports have been

concerned about these issues for years.

However new evidence shows that air travel is contributing

towards a far greater threat - CLIMATE CHANGE

 

 

https://www.foe.co.uk/sites/default/files/downloads/aviation_climate_change.pdf

[citizenB]

First of all, I thought we didn't believe anything the Daily Mail writes, or speculates and 2nd.. Why is Cameron so determined that we stay in, after all, he claims not be running for Prime Minister again, so I cant see why he would be concerned one way or another ?

[citizenB]

Why is the government spending millions of tax payers money on telling the public it thinks we are better off inside the EU, I mean this cant be right can it ?..

 

 

 

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/whos-getting-taxpayers-money-eu-referendum/

 

 

Next week every household in the country will receive a leaflet from the government setting out its case for why it thinks the UK should remain an EU member. This will cost over £9 million of public money (including £3 million in digital promotion), according to the government.

 

Leave campaigners object to this, saying it’s a misuse of public funds and that they won’t be able to get as much during the actual campaign period.

 

It’s correct that the two official campaigns will get some public money in direct grants and publicly funded benefits such as a free mail out across the country. This is likely to amount to millions, but it’s not clear exactly how much. It shouldn’t be confused with the £7 million spending limit each will have which is money they have to raise themselves.

 

 

 

I haven't received the government mailshot yet - but did receive one today that appears to be for the Out group It does say at the end that People need to weigh up the pros and cons for themselves - which might be difficult when apparently large pro European - firms are sending memos to their staff advising that jobs could be lost if we leave the EU ?

 

I don't seem to be able to upload the document but have listed the points below.

 

Uk joined the EU in 1973 - Back then it was known as the Common Market- But over the past 43 years, the EU has taken control over more and more areas which don't have anything to do with trade. Such as our borders, public services and whether prisoners have the right to vote.

When we joined, there were just 9 member states. Now there are 28 - the most recent being Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia. Five more countries are being considered for membership. Albania, Macedonia Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey. If they are let in, they will have the same rights as other member states.

 

More than half of net migration to the UK comes from the EU. More tan a quarter of a million people cam to the UK from the E in the 12 months to September 2015. The equivalent of a city the size of Plymouth or Newcastle in just one year.

 

While we're in the EU the UK cant make trade deals on our own. This means we have no trade deals with key allies such as Australia, New Zealand or the USA or more important growing economies like India, China or Brazil. Instead of making a deal which is best for the UK, we have to wait for 27 other countries to agree to it.

 

The EU costs us £350 million a week. That is enough to build a new NHS hospital every week of the year. We get less than half of this money back and we have no control over the way it is spent. That is decided by politicians and officials in Brussels rather than the people we elect here in the UK.

 

You don't have to be a member of the EU to trade with it. Switzerland is not in the EU and it exports more per person to the EU than we do. The big banks and multinationals might be lobbying to keep us in the EU but small and medium sized businesses feel differently. Only 6 per cent of UK firms export to the EU, yet all have to abide by EU regulations on their business.

 

EU law overrules UK law. This stops the British Public from being able to vote out the politicians who make our laws. EU judges have already over ruled British laws on issues like counter terrorism powers, immigration, VAG and prisoner voting. Even the Governments proposed new deal can be overturned after the referendum: it is not legally binding.

 

There are risks in voting either way. Experts and politicians and businesses are divided. People have to weigh up the risks and potential benefits of each of course of action for themselves.

 

http://www.eureferendumfacts.org

[citizenB]

Do you have a link for your quote please, buckthorn?

 

HB

 

 

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/463224/Fury-European-Union-bureaucrats-spend-1-5-million-Africa-dirt-study

[citizenB]

I think that was a shameful bit of scaremongering. I rather suspect that people just wont believe them.

[citizenB]

 

UK tax system is far too complex and needs substantial reform. I would take it out of the hands of politicians, so they can't mess around with it for purely political purposes.

 

 

Absolutely - there are too many loopholes built into our tax system.

 

Why not have a tax rate that encourages certain types of employment. You might decide that a Doctor is more worthwhile to the country, than say an accountant.

 

Why have a VAT rate of 20% which hits lower incomes more, where they spend most of their income on basic living ? If you want a country to do well, you need people on low/average incomes not needing state benefit support and being able to spend money in the economy. This may mean those on above average incomes would have to pay more income taxes, but those in business are seeing more revenues coming in, therefore potential to share in performance of their business.

 

I would also look to put a cap on private rents on a regional basis and offer private landlords some other incentive to stay active in the private rental market. This might help with the housing benefit cost and house price values.

 

 

I believe this is the wrong way to go. Everyone who works has a part to play in society from road sweepers to Heart Surgeons. You could say those who empty our rubbish bins every week save as many lives by way of reducing disease spread by uncollected waste !

 

 

I do however agree that just because someone earns a huge salary - they shouldn't be penalised with ridiculously high tax bills. Perhaps start the point at which people do pay tax on their income at a much higher level than it already is. No one can live on the current tax free level of what... £11,000? So why not make it higher at say £15,000 and then to pay tax on a lower band. Anyone earning over say £100,000 should pay a middle rate of tax of about 30% and anyone earning over £250,000 at 40% but there should be absolutely no exemptions.

 

 

Heavily taxed individuals have no incentives to earn more IMHO or they find ways to avoid paying tax either legally or illegally.

[citizenB]

I'm still on the fence here.

 

But regarding bonfire of workers rights.

 

Currently whilst part of the EU. Who has longest working week?

 

How many bank holidays do we have compared to the rest.

 

How does our current productivity compare

 

 

 

 

According to a study - Greeks work the longest hours - 42.2 per week - with Germans only working 35.6.

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/dec/08/europe-working-hours

 

 

Although according to the article below - UK workers, work the longest at 48 hours and an incredible amount of unpaid overtime !

 

 

https://www.tuc.org.uk/workplace-issues/working_time.cfm

 

 

Bank Holidays

 

 

The Uk at the bottom of the list for those.

 

 

https://www.tuc.org.uk/workplace-issues/chemicals-and-dust/welfare-and-benefits/uk-has-least-bank-holidays-europe-tuc-wants

 

 

And we are also very low down the list where annual leave is concerned ! With only 20 days annual leave with some of the other EU countries having over 30 !!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18144319

 

 

Can find nothing really in respect of productivity = although it has been said that just because long hours are worked, does not mean you are more productive.

[citizenB]

Don't go by Opinion polls. Remember the last neck/neck election, where the Tories won by 7% over Labour.

 

Given the Brexiters will be very keen on voting and many on the remain or undecided side are less motivated to vote, i reckon that the 'leave' side are probably at least 5% ahead. Based on what i hear, i think the current position is 45% leave, 40% remain and 15% undecided.

 

The remain campaign must start to put forward a positive case, so the 15% undecideds are motivated to vote, otherwise Cameron will be out of office, with Boris as PM by September negotiating exit terms.

 

I think thats far nearer the mark than any 'official' statement unclebulgaria.

 

Makes you wonder if any of the inners really do want an in result doesn't it?

 

 

I am very concerned that big business are trying to influence the voting of their employees by sending letters/emails to them pretty much on behalf of the remain side !

 

 

Whatever the outcome - I think the count has to be high for one side or the other, else this will continue to rumble on... pretty much like the Scottish Referendum.

[citizenB]

I see Martin Lewis is also in favour of staying !

 

 

The latest from the Treasury is a 100 page document threatening a year long recession if we leave !

 

 

Now what happens if we were to believe this and leave and... we still get the year long recession, do we get to vote again because they have lied to us ?

[citizenB]

the bank warns of recession if out (above).

but, according to to the beeb the uk industry is already back in recession?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36266178

 

hi citb

see my post bbc link #527

apparently uk trade is already back in recession! though it is expected to perk up later this year (prob depending on the outcome of the eu vote )

 

 

Sorry Ford missed that - so again they are relying on the short term memory of the British Public !

[citizenB]

If the leave side wins by a narrow margin, Cameron or his successor are not going to negotiate exit of the EU. Instead they will try to negotiate revised membership terms and possibly hold another referendum. The reason i believe this is that there is not a majority of MP's or Lords who would vote through relevant Bills of Parliament to support exit from the EU. Brexit is not going to happen, unless there is a reasonable turnout and a very clear win for leave.

 

Brexit would be a nightmare people wish they had not voted for. It will cause political and economic instability for years. This is my assessment of the situation and not influenced by any of the remain campaign.

 

 

I am with you on this one, Uncle B. I think this will be relevant whichever side wins if it is a narrow margin - it needs to be a massive yes/no.

 

 

I was looking at the news earlier on and it would appear there is a clear divide between age groups. 18-24 year group will vote to stay (that is if they can be bothered to vote at all) and those over 58 will most likely vote to leave and it is this age group that do tend to vote.

 

 

Now if it is true there is a glut of people in the latter age group and older, then it is likely those that voted originally to go into the Common Market will very likely bring us out of the EU

[citizenB]

From what I see, the Human Rights Act pretty much only secures protection for criminals and terrorists ?

[citizenB]

I do wonder if , as it seems , the older people are more prone to vote out and the younger to remain is because older people still perceive the UK to be THE superpower who defeated germany twice, defeated and saved France , liberated Europe from the tyranny of those nasty Germans and are feeling hard done to when they realise that we are no longer a global superpower let alone THE superpower. If that is the case, I suppose some education is in order

 

 

 

Just as well that it is the older people who will make the effort to vote - either by registering in the first place - going to the polling stations or using their postal votes.

 

 

Whereas the younger voters are to lazy to even register or if the reports are to be believed backing out of the registration process when they get to the bit that asks for their NI number - because... they either cant remember it or don't want to give the government this information !!

 

 

Cant be bothered to vote unless it is via an app on their phone or lap top !

[citizenB]

It is a real shame that we cant simply accept that someone might have different ideas to us and stop with the persecution of those who do!

 

 

If someone's ideas are not in sync with yours, then just ignore them - don't respond.

[citizenB]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-international-idUSKCN0YV1P1

 

Factbox: Britain and Brexit: what the rest of the world says

 

 

The prospect of Britain leaving the European Union has worried many foreign leaders and international bodies, leading to a string of warnings about a loss of British influence and a possible blow to the global economy.

 

Leaders of the "In" campaign have pointed to the chorus of concern to bolster their pitch to voters. The rival "Out" camp has said the sight of foreign leaders telling Britons how to vote only helps their push to get the country out of the bloc.

 

 

 

I am finding it quite amusing how these foreign leaders are really only concerned with their own interests !

[citizenB]

fletch, I think there has already been a major lurch to the right within Europe.

 

 

I also notice there have been other EU member states mumbling about leaving the "club". IMHO, some of them are just waiting to see what happens with our referendum before their own citizens start to rise up and demand exit !

[citizenB]

IMHO, it will make no difference whether we are in or out.

 

 

Whatever problems that follow the referendum will be laid at the feet of the other side.

 

 

There are already rumblings of another crash and I see that there are threats of falling house prices. The USA are panicking in advance of a decision by the UK because for some reason that escapes me - a decision to exit will mean they cant raise their interest rates - why ?

 

 

So if we exit - the remain campaign will say we told you so when all these dire warnings of doom and gloom happen (if they happen) and vice versa if we remain and we will be seen as mugs and Europe will tie us in to even more things that the UK are wanting to get shot of. What next if we remain - proving our alliance to Europe by taking on the Euro and getting shot of sterling ?

[citizenB]

George Osborne will announce today that if the UK votes to leave the EU, he will have to hold an emergency budget where he will table tax increases and spending cuts. In response the leave campaign are saying that parliament would vote down any such budget. This would lead to a vote of no confidence in the government which is always held when a government is unable to pass their budget. This could lead to a general election before the end of this year, presumaby after a very toxic Tory leadership contest.

 

If this were to happen, i am not sure what the outcome of a general election would be. My guess would be a coalition government and brexit never being implemented.

 

What a mess Cameron has engineered !

 

 

I think whatever the outcome is, there will need to be some tax increases and spending cuts - a Brexit vote would just give him a reason. I wonder what it will be if we DONT vote to leave !

[citizenB]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-8121255

 

Appears Martin Lewis was placed on leaflets without his permission !

 

A couple of weeks ago I was so stunned I dropped my wallet (you can imagine how tightly I cling to that) when a Stronger In Europe leaflet popped through my door with my face and quote at the top.

I hadn’t been asked for permission, nor am I campaigning for either side (see the truth about the leaflet blog).

The quote was accurate. It came from ITV’s The Agenda where I was put on the spot with a direct question.

I’m not a politician, so I answered, saying: “On balance of probability, it is more likely we’ll have less money in our pockets if we vote to leave”.

On its own, especially as I cautioned it was a fine call, it isn’t a glowing endorsement.

However, in the context of the leaflet it seems more.

Indeed ever since a November poll petrifyingly said I’m the UK’s most-trusted person on the EU vote, even some of my minor utterances have been picked up.

 

[citizenB]

I thought both sides were to provide me with "information" in order for me to make up my mind.

 

 

However, it feels to me as though both sides are trying to "dictate" the way in which me and others will vote with their horror stories.

[citizenB]

Richard Branson - Lives in the Virgin Islands - has no right to vote in the UK, is spending £10,000 of his own money campaigning to remain. Where does he pay his taxes ?

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/20/richard-branson-starts-his-own-campaign-to-keep-britain-in-the-eu

 

 

A Virgin spokesperson said: “Richard has lived overseas for some years and so he’s not on the electoral register. Richard’s children and grandchildren live in the UK and clearly as an investor Richard has interests in the UK, with Virgin businesses employing over 50,000 people. Richard is urging every single one of them to vote in.”

[citizenB]

I think the voters can strike a blow without actually leaving.

 

 

if the outcome is say... 51%-49% to stay - then the UK might possibly be able to negotiate better terms/conditions - the government might finally realise that people are unhappy.

[citizenB]

We did all right without the EU before and no one asked for a political union, trade yes but not political..

 

 

Exactly, we voted to enter into a Trading agreement.