Non-Compliant "Electronic Signature" CCA capquest/Vanquis

[ben341]

Hi,

 

I have a debt to Capquest (owned by them purchased from Vanquis in 2012).

 

I have been trying to sort this out and three weeks ago sent off a CCA

because I could not recall signing anything when this was taken out.

 

I spent £500 in total which needs to be paid back but the amount claimed by Capquest is £701,

presumably these are credit charges, interest and default fees etc.

 

Because I don't recall signing a CCA what I would like is for the amount owed to be agreed at what I actually spent,

which is what I feel comfortable with on moral grounds on repaying.

I am still in a financially weak position and the £201 additional fees are more than I am prepared to accept.

 

My "CCA" came yesterday. I

expect other people will have had this, it is simply a spreadsheet containing information that was on the web application form.

There is no tick box or anything pertaining to being an electronic signature yet the pages are titled "Digital Signature Application details".

 

I happen to know rather a lot about digital signatures, having designed many compliant forms for many organisations

in this country and from what I learned is that the burden of proof always lays on the organisation requesting the signature.

 

The purpose of the signature is to provide trust that the document was signed by the intended party

and that it has not been altered or tampered with in any way since.

 

While a "tick box" may be all that is legally required to form an electronic and legally binding signature,

the person making a judgement on whether it is valid or not has to be assured there is no doubt

the correct person ticked that box, and therefore is not really enforceable.

 

Normally you would use a trusted third party such as Echosign or Docusign which would take your document,

encrypt it with a unique key and take other supporting information such as IP addresses,

the email addresses used, metadata from the browser as well as more advanced forms of ID checking

such as automatically dialling your telephone number to provide you with a pin number you need to be able to sign.

This provides little doubt that if the telephone number you provided is in fact yours, you more than likely signed the agreement.

 

But nothing like that here, no IP address, no tick box, nothing to rule that I ever agreed to the terms and conditions that are attached.

I am confident that if this is all the information they have, that it is completely legally unenforceable.

 

Also the terms and conditions they provided say

"The actual interest rate you receive will be communicated to you when we open your account".

I am surprised this information is not required in advance to signing a credit agreement.

 

This just leaves me to think that all they have given me is information that would have been presented

on-screen at the point of application, prior to credit checking purposes etc.

 

I do remember that I was never asked at any time to go and sign anything after the initial online application process.

 

Capquest are not nice people and will not agree with my point of view, even though I know, based on what has provided, they cannot prove that I have ever agreed to the CCA. The data they provided me is in response to my official and paid for CCA request

which therefore I would have thought meant they had to provide everything.

 

If they do happen to have a record of my IP address for example it would weaken my case,

especially as the IP address was static at that time, however it still isn't exactly bullet proof on their behalf.

 

What I would like to know is, has anyone got experience in approaching this situation.

I will not agree to repay £701 and will not agree to pay anything more than I spent,

especially on the basis that I didn't enter a CCA with that company on technical grounds.

 

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks

Edited July 13, 2014 by ben341
Added attachments of "agreement"

[ben341]

I have just been reading another thread about enforcement of a CCA to see what information it should contain. What they have given me has got to be an application form (even their own title agrees with that). There is no mention of credit limit anywhere in the data they provided to me and the only interest rates and cost of borrowing is an example list of tier's, one of which will be applied to my account when they open with. Therefore they are just example's of cost of borrowing.

 

I reckon there is no agreement here whatsoever. The worry is are they holding on to something else that they have not provided?

[unclebulgaria67]

Really depends on when this account was taken out. If it was April 2007 onwards due to change in the Consumer Credit Act, they could quite easily go to court with the documents they have, evidence what you owed, that they issued a default notice that you did not pay and they would win.

 

You could write to them asking for a copy of any default notice they issued and a breakdown of how £701 has been calculated.

 

Or you could send them a without prejudice full & final settlement offer of what you think you owe. They may accept, but may only be willing to mark your credit record as partly satisfied and not fully satisfied. This would obviously not be very helpful to you for period, if you applied for credit services.

[ben341]

Ah that's a shame then. I thought a CCA was a requirement these days, wish I hadn't wasted my time requesting it.

[unclebulgaria67]

Ah that's a shame then. I thought a CCA was a requirement these days, wish I hadn't wasted my time requesting it.

 

My understanding is that CCA's issued from April 2007 come under the revised act and it is pretty impossible to argue about issues with the CCA, as the court will just be interested in whether the debt is proved to be owed. If there were technical problems with the default notice that would be worth looking at, but to remedy this they could just issue a new notice.

 

You have to be a bit careful, as with a debt of £701, with interest still being added, it could get to £750 in due course, which is the bankruptcy threshold. Though with the new FCA rules, they would have to go for a CCJ first and then if not paid, they could look at bankruptcy if you owned any assets. e.g property noted on land registry.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Ah that's a shame then. I thought a CCA was a requirement these days, wish I hadn't wasted my time requesting it.

The Vanquis online app form has always had a dual purpose serving also as an agreement, a copy of the agreement is sent with the credit card showing the interest rates applicable to the individuals card.

 

 

The tiers of interest rates shown are there because Vanquis applies different rates according to how they see the "risk" of lending.

 

 

You could attempt a reclaim of "penalty" charges.

[ben341]

It is just the penalty charges I am hoping not to pay.

[dx100uk]

pop them in this [each one]

 

This second spreadsheet is a compound interest calculator and can be used both for PPI claims and Charges Reclaims on Revolving Credit Accounts such as credit cards. Compound interest is not an award that fos will give in respect of PPI claims but it can be used in PPI cases that are pursued through the courts. It is the standard sheet that is also used for charges reclaims both on credit cards and loan accounts where interest in restitution is claimed.

 

CISheet v101.xls

 

put their int rate in cell d15.

 

have you got 'ROP' [PPI too?]

 

dx

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

It is just the penalty charges I am hoping not to pay.

Are you then admitting the underlying debt?

[Old Cogger]

Vanquis Default Notices seem to be minus date of issue, they must rely on accompaning letter?

[ben341]

Are you then admitting the underlying debt?

 

Hi, yes well I did spend probably not too far short of the £500. I stopped paying because they kept adding charges that were higher than I could afford to pay back so it seemed pointless, all I could pay was the charge itself and that was never likely to end.

[ben341]

I guess I would need to do a SAR in order to see all the charges and interest rate since it isn't in the CCA. I guess the question is now then is there any point or will I have an endless battle on my hands trying to get the £200 of charges removed from this outstanding amount and therefore any money spent on SAR may as well be spent on repayment if not.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I guess I would need to do a SAR in order to see all the charges and interest rate since it isn't in the CCA. I guess the question is now then is there any point or will I have an endless battle on my hands trying to get the £200 of charges removed from this outstanding amount and therefore any money spent on SAR may as well be spent on repayment if not.

 

 

You could make an Full & Final settlement offer of just the actual debt.