rest between shifts.

[jaisunny]

Hello,

 

Quick question about rest between shifts.

 

I can see doing a google search that this is 11 hours. But can I explain this situation.

 

If john works 9am till 7pm as national on call employee(no set work place) but his contract states 8am to 9am and 7pm to 8pm must be free unpaid travelling time.

 

However 1 day john finished his last job at 8.30pm and got home at 10pm.

 

Does the rest count from 8.30pm or 10pm when john got home??

[renegadeimp]

11 hours by law unless your employer has a workplace agreement with the union or workers. For instance, the legal is 11, but my employer and the union have an agreement for 8, but the employer must make good allowances if that person wants to move shifts at any time.

 

The rest time counts from the second he leaves his workplace/clocks off etc. Dependant on the wording of the contract.

[jaisunny]

11 hours by law unless your employer has a workplace agreement with the union or workers. For instance, the legal is 11, but my employer and the union have an agreement for 8, but the employer must make good allowances if that person wants to move shifts at any time.

 

The rest time counts from the second he leaves his workplace/clocks off etc. Dependant on the wording of the contract.

 

Its a little vague, because i give another example. If john clocks off on his job at 9pm but drives 6 hours to get home, so home time 3am. But his shift starts again in 6 hours (but the contract states he must leave at 8am so technically 5 hours)?

 

Does it count from 9pm or 3am. If it only counts from 9pm that means the law recommends driving is rest?

[renegadeimp]

If he clocks off the job at 9pm then thats when his shift has officially ended. The time starts from then. Otherwise people could abuse it by saying they had to drive 6 hours to get home every day. 6 hours there, 11 hours rest, 6 hours back.... No work would ever get done. It isnt the employers concern where you live. ALl they care about is getting the job done and making sure someone is there ready to start work at the stated start time.

 

regarding your final statement, i think you have misinterpreted it. The law doesnt care where you live or how far away you are. Thats your problem. All the law covers is the time in between the end of one shift and start of another. Otherwise the people who live close to the workplace would be worse off than the people who live far away.

[jaisunny]

If he clocks off the job at 9pm then thats when his shift has officially ended. The time starts from then. Otherwise people could abuse it by saying they had to drive 6 hours to get home every day. 6 hours there, 11 hours rest, 6 hours back.... No work would ever get done. It isnt the employers concern where you live. ALl they care about is getting the job done and making sure someone is there ready to start work at the stated start time.

 

 

But what if the system is not being abused.

 

What if an employee genuinely drove for 6 hours to get home at 3am and then had to leave his house again in 5 hours time?

[renegadeimp]

Thats the employees problem. Not the employers. As far as the employer is concerned, the shift finished at 9pm, and the employee is scheduled to be in at 8 am the next morning. Or whatever times you want to substitute there.

 

As a real life example. I finished work one day last year at 2 pm after an 8 hour shift. I had to be in london for a meeting with a new manager for 7 am the next morning. This meeting was 3 hours long. I then had to go to bradford to my companies head office for a main meeting the same day. I then had to drive home, get sleep etc, and be ready for work at 8 am the next morning.

[jaisunny]

Thats the employees problem. Not the employers. As far as the employer is concerned, the shift finished at 9pm, and the employee is scheduled to be in at 8 am the next morning. Or whatever times you want to substitute there.

 

If an employee told his employer he cannot do that job because he would get home too late. But the employer demanded him to do it anyway. Employees fault?

[renegadeimp]

Depends on the job and if there is anyone else that is able to do the job and not travel that far. They cannot DEMAND you do it like that, but they can ask and make it a reasonable request, especially if there isnt anyone else around to do it. But normally in that hypothetical scenario you stated, they would give plenty of advanced notice.

[jaisunny]

Depends on the job and if there is anyone else that is able to do the job and not travel that far. They cannot DEMAND you do it like that, but they can ask and make it a reasonable request, especially if there isnt anyone else around to do it. But normally in that hypothetical scenario you stated, they would give plenty of advanced notice.

 

I see, Let me explain the scenario in a little more details.

 

so if john was told by his employer at 4pm to go to this job which the distance is a longer distance than the 60 minutes travelling home his contract states he needs to give and was told he needs to attend the job at 6pm. John told his manager sorry if i do that i will finish the job when my shift finishes at 7pm BUT i will not get home for 2 or 3 hours (contract states need to give 1 hour travelling unpaid). This taking him into overtime john does not want to do. His manager told him sorry you have to do it. There is 2 other employees closer that work in the area of this job but they have another job to do already.

 

Johns contract is not a national on call engineer (sorry for putting that in the first post) he works in a allocated area but the job his manager was telling him to do is outside of his allocated working area.

 

John has only just 2 weeks ago returned back to work on full hours, prior to that john was on reduced hours by his GP.

 

Also what if manager has full access to trackable vehicle to notice when john got home?

 

If the '11 hours rest' includes the travelling home whether it be 10 mins or 10 hours. Potentially you could lets say drive home for 10 hours then get 1 hour sleep then back on your shift again (manager knows where you live and insisted on sending you miles and miles away knowing you'll get home too late). Then after your 1 hour rest you go back to work and kill a family of 4 on the road due to your tiredness. Employer would not be responsible at all because its employees fault for living too far away from the one off job the manager sent you on? SO here we are not talking about a fixed place of work such as tesco whereby you'd expect most employees to live within 15 mins from there workplace. We are talking about a field support position whereby john does not know where he will be going throughout the day till the last minute.

Edited May 13, 2014 by jaisunny
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[ssparks2003]

Are you john or is this some coursework?

[jaisunny]

Are you john or is this some coursework?

 

Either way that doesnt answer the question

[ssparks2003]

And neither did your response. If you are actually asking a questiong for yourself or another then say so. if you are trying to get people from this website to do your coursework or homework have the balls to say that you are lazy and can't be bothered to do your own work.

[renegadeimp]

Ahh, so there we have it. It is a theoretical scenario purely for coursework. Ill bow out now and let the admins handle it.

[jaisunny]

Nope, its a genuine question for a genuine scenario which has occurred. I am 33 years old, i did course work 13 years ago.

 

Since the last message i have spoken to unite the union and they advised what you have mentioned renegadeimp is INCORRECT.. Just to clarify and make it clear for others reading this.

 

TRAVELLING HOME FROM A JOB THAT YOUR BOSS/MANAGER SENT YOU TO IS NOT CLASSED AS REST. THE MOMENT YOU STEP FOOT OVER THE THRESHOLD IS THE MOMENT IT IS CLASSED AS REST BETWEEN SHIFTS.

 

Of course there has to be some common sense here. ie.. an employer would NOT employ you knowing you live 2 hours from a fixed site based workplace. If they did then they would of been notified of this by the employee and therefore the employer has to take travelling into consideration from when the employees shift starts the next day. I didnt think it added up that travelling was classed as rest, after all as i say you could get stuck in traffic and only have say 3 hours rest at home before your shift starts, that is the EMPLOYERS problem not the employees. Just to make that clear.

[renegadeimp]

Word of advice. DOnt believe what unite says. i was a steward with them for almost 7 years, and i left for a good reason.

[jaisunny]

Word of advice. DOnt believe what unite says. i was a steward with them for almost 7 years, and i left for a good reason.

 

Hmm, then it would leave me still confused. Unite said if your job involves driving then travelling home is not classed as rest till you physically get home.

[renegadeimp]

If unite was right then the rule would be hugely exploitable

[griffzilla]

Take a look at: https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/calculating-your-working-hours

[jaisunny]

If unite was right then the rule would be hugely exploitable

 

Not if you have a company vehicle with a company tracker attached. This verifies everything.

 

If travelling was classed as rest and not part of the shift as i mentioned before i can flip the situation completely and i could potentially have say 2 hours sleep at home before my shift starts due to travelling home for hours and hours. Then the next day i could crash due to lack of rest and for example kill someone due to lack of rest. Its 100% the employers problem, they employed you therefore they know where you live. If your stuck in a traffic jam for 10 hours the employee did not and can not change where the location of the employers premises or customers are located. The employer knows where you live and therefore has to take responsibility if any travelling issues occur. Of course this is only true if as i understand your job involves driving ie... courier, plumber, field engineer...etc.

 

If you have a fixed place of work such as tesco's the rules may be different. But as i say if your job involves driving, rest is when you are at home.

[obiter dictum]

Are we not forgetting something, if an employer sent you to a job that he was aware will take you six hours to get back home after you completed that job. He will be unwise to tell you that you had to report back into work 5 hours later without the permitted rest period. This will be covered under Regulation 3 Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999. No doubt a Safe Systems of Work as well

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/3242/regulation/3/made