Roofer did shoddy work and has now filed court claim against me

[Kinger122]

Kinger

 

Not getting much time to post on here lately....... the order is really an interim remedy, both sides should attempt to comply as far as is possible. Is the other sides counsel still instructed? It may simplify matters if all comms are via his solicitor.

 

Not sure you can appeal as it doesn't appear to be a final judgment in the case and is still open to applications from either side.

 

Perhaps ask building control to undertake a site visit prior to any further works so that all parties are aware of which works must be completed for later scrutiny. If that is possible I would be inclined to engage with the other sides sol and explain the course of action you expect from his client.

 

f16 asked about tile type, are you able to confirm?

 

sorry for the confusion there was no solicitor. the clerk told me the person accompanying the claimant was a solicitor but it was not true. it was just an employee.

 

The Tiles are a low pitch tile certified to ten degrees. They are centurion tiles by Forticrete. flashing are also appropiate for 15 degrees and that type of tile. almost all materials were provided by myself. The claimant only provided materials to put the pitch up to 15 degrees and the finishing touches to the roof.

 

Im using a mobile so sorry for spelling

[steampowered]

Kinger

Could you get a couple of quotes, NOT ESTIMATES, from other roofers to remove and replace, at the correct pitch. Deduct this amount, and pay original bloke the balance, making it perfectly clear why you have deducted it. Obviously you don't want him on your property, understandably, and have lost faith in him, again, understandably!

Legally, both parties should be financially in a position they were in, before the dispute occurred.

 

 

f16, in your opinion, do you think this would be a fair way to deal with the problem, or does your question regarding the make and type if tiles have any bearings.

I think it is too late for this unfortunately. It sounds like the DJ has already decided what should happen. If kinger ignores the DJ's order he probably won't be able to recover the additional cost. The DJ has essentially given them another chance to perform the contract.

 

Kinger as previously advised you cannot recover compensation for stress/inconvenience in construction contracts, unfortunately. This type of damage is only recoverable for what are known as amenity contracts (things like holidays).

[Kinger122]

I think it is too late for this unfortunately. It sounds like the DJ has already decided what should happen. If kinger ignores the DJ's order he probably won't be able to recover the additional cost. The DJ has essentially given them another chance to perform the contract.

 

Kinger as previously advised you cannot recover compensation for stress/inconvenience in construction contracts, unfortunately. This type of damage is only recoverable for what are known as amenity contracts (things like holidays).

 

So if you sign a contract saying a roof must be built at a pitch of 15 in 4 days and the builder takes months and the wrong pitch you cannot get anything for breach of contract?

 

Yet the builder reserves the right to claim full cost if he cannot gain access!!!

 

I dont understand the point of a contract if the builder can breach it and the customer has to accwpt something not agreed to yet pay the full price.

 

Would you be expected to accept and pay for a brand new car with three wheels instead of four?

[maddiemay]

Didn't someone say above it was an interim order? Would that make Kinger able to negotiate with the original roofer?

 

Is it possible Kinger could get a new watertight contract drawn up by a solicitor for the remedial works?

[Mike_hawk]

I think [however unfortunate the result may be], that the best short term option would be to engage with building control and agree the works to be completed. This should provide you with a reasonable excuse for delaying works without appearing obstructive until you have sight of the order.

 

My reference to interim order was essentially that the case will not be concluded on the order alone, however it is drafted it will rely on both parties undertaking a prescibed action, in the absence of which I would assume either side is at liberty to apply to the court again.

[steampowered]

So if you sign a contract saying a roof must be built at a pitch of 15 in 4 days and the builder takes months and the wrong pitch you cannot get anything for breach of contract?

 

Yet the builder reserves the right to claim full cost if he cannot gain access!!!

 

I dont understand the point of a contract if the builder can breach it and the customer has to accwpt something not agreed to yet pay the full price.

 

Would you be expected to accept and pay for a brand new car with three wheels instead of four?

You can claim for quantifiable financial loss only, not compensation for stress or inconvenience.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the judge is making them give you what you contracted for ... but he is not allowing you to get someone else in to do the work at greater cost. As Mike said wait until you have the actual order to see exactly what you have to do.

[Kinger122]

You can claim for quantifiable financial loss only, not compensation for stress or inconvenience.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the judge is making them give you what you contracted for ... but he is not allowing you to get someone else in to do the work at greater cost. As Mike said wait until you have the actual order to see exactly what you have to do.

 

The judge has said for thw pitch to remain AS IT IS.

 

The building inspector gave me the option initially that he would accept the roof at 13.5 as long as I was happy with it and the guarantee provided by the claimant. I said I was not hence the issues.

 

The judge said for the claimant to repair the roof as the claimant said it was leaking due to me deliberately tampering with it not the pitch. the judge then said to liase with building control and for the certificate to be issued. If not then come back to the judge. how I reallt don't know

 

The issue is leak or no I don't want a roof pitch less than 15 as that was not what I agreed in the first place. Do I have to accept something inferior yet pay the same price. surely if I must accept less than t15 the claimant must accept less than the contracted price.

 

This is the whole issue. the building certificate is dependant on my approval. as building control have said they will only be happy with a warranty provided by the claimant. building control were effectively doing ME a favour. I rang other building control conpanies and they said it would only be acceptable with an engineers approved drawings and plans. something which the claimant is not doing. I feel building control are being too lax here. in my opinion is should be 15 degrees or nothing. They would never let you get away without the sufficient dept for foundations.

 

Can the claimant liase with building control. I paid them and it is my house. If I refuse to accept the building certificate can that be held against me. If I am being given the choice surely it is my perogative. especially as its not at the agreed pitch. when I spoke with the building inspector he said that even if I refused it as it was being disputed it could still be issued.

 

Where is the legislation which building inspector use? how can it be so vague. Im really struggling with what to do here

[maddiemay]

Any building regs? Not sure if you need them, I imagine so, if so what do they say? as that is what should be done, and the building inspector or judge cannot deviate from those regulations!

[maddiemay]

Reading back, it sounds like the judge wants building control to have the final say, if they say the pitch can be at 13.5, you're stuck with it, if not it has to be done as per their specifications, which is usual practice anyway.

 

Who said in the first instance that the pitch needed to be at 15? Building control presumably, therefore it has to be 15 or they won't sign it off or shouldn't do!

[Kinger122]

Reading back, it sounds like the judge wants building control to have the final say, if they say the pitch can be at 13.5, you're stuck with it, if not it has to be done as per their specifications, which is usual practice anyway.

 

Who said in the first instance that the pitch needed to be at 15? Building control presumably, therefore it has to be 15 or they won't sign it off or shouldn't do!

 

Building control said it. the contract specified "all materials to manufacturer specifications" and I made the claimant specify it on the contract.

 

Maddie you got it on the second message. does that mean if the builder manages to stop the roof leaking and building control issues a certificate then I have no choice but to accept it?

[steampowered]

Oh, I see. I had slightly misunderstood.

 

 

Can the claimant liase with building control. I paid them and it is my house. If I refuse to accept the building certificate can that be held against me. If I am being given the choice surely it is my perogative. especially as its not at the agreed pitch. when I spoke with the building inspector he said that even if I refused it as it was being disputed it could still be issued.

Wait until you get the interim order and see what it says.

[maddiemay]

Kinger, just been talking to my hubby, he's asked if it's a lean to roof?

[f16]

Kinger122.

Ok so the Pitch is 13 degrees, and the tiles are suitable down to 10 degrees, but you may find that you have to increase the "Overlap" of the tile the more you decrease the pitch of the roof.

So find out the manufactures fitting instructions and check the "Overlap" is correct.

Velux can NOT be fitted under 15 degrees. (exception is the flat roof unit).

Fitting them on a roof pitch under 15 degrees will nullify their guarantee.

 

The judge has said that your roofer has to give you an insurance backed guarantee, after he has completed the work and then you pay him.

If your roofer doesn't tell the insurance co about the Pitch error" he will get insurance..... But it will be worthless because he has fitted materials not to manufactures spec.

If the roofer does tell the insurer; He either won't get insurance or the policy will be "loaded". The former being more likely.

 

When the roofer gives you the "Certificate" pay NOTHING until you have it in writing from the insurer that they are aware of the "pitch error" and it is accepted

with "No exclusions"

I think you will find they "cancel the policy".That then means you pay nothing to the roofer.

Take care.

F16

[Kinger122]

Kinger, just been talking to my hubby, he's asked if it's a lean to roof?

 

yes it leans against the rear wall of my house. its a a single storey rear extension along the whole back wall of the house.

[Kinger122]

Kinger122.

Ok so the Pitch is 13 degrees, and the tiles are suitable down to 10 degrees, but you may find that you have to increase the "Overlap" of the tile the more you decrease the pitch of the roof.

So find out the manufactures fitting instructions and check the "Overlap" is correct.

Velux can NOT be fitted under 15 degrees. (exception is the flat roof unit).

Fitting them on a roof pitch under 15 degrees will nullify their guarantee.

 

The judge has said that your roofer has to give you an insurance backed guarantee, after he has completed the work and then you pay him.

If your roofer doesn't tell the insurance co about the Pitch error" he will get insurance..... But it will be worthless because he has fitted materials not to manufactures spec.

If the roofer does tell the insurer; He either won't get insurance or the policy will be "loaded". The former being more likely.

 

When the roofer gives you the "Certificate" pay NOTHING until you have it in writing from the insurer that they are aware of the "pitch error" and it is accepted

with "No exclusions"

I think you will find they "cancel the policy".That then means you pay nothing to the roofer.

Take care.

F16

 

Thank you for your reply it has been really helpful. I called around other building control companies and they informed me that they would only pass my roof if an engineer had developed a way to prevent the risk of water ingress. I.E they made a workaround. Unfortunately they would not send me anything in writing.

 

This roofer provided no way in which he would do anything different which I am not happy with.

 

I thought about the same point regarding the insurance. They are always looking for ways to get out of paying and I wonder why they would want to insure such a risky roof. I have no experience of insurance backed guarantees. Am I right to assume that this would be a lump sum paid upfront which would have terms and conditions along with an excess and exemptions.(somewhat like a regular insurance policy)

[f16]

Yes .It is a lump sum, and it may have an excess and or exclusions. ..

But those will be in the "Policy" not on the "certificate". If the roofer fails to inform the insurer of the errors and you make a claim they will reject it when they

discover the errors.

 

The problem with a low pitched roof is. A/ High winds driving the rain under the tiles. B/ Capillary action.

 

You need to get the roof tile "Spec. and fitting instructions" Not only the tile "Overlap" question ,but the lead flashing at the extensions abutment to the house may have to be increased as well.

If you look at the verge at each end of the extension you will be able to measure the "overlap" and likewise the lead flashing.

 

Do the drawings show "vent tiles and soffit vents ?

[Kinger122]

Yes .It is a lump sum, and it may have an excess and or exclusions. ..

But those will be in the "Policy" not on the "certificate". If the roofer fails to inform the insurer of the errors and you make a claim they will reject it when they

discover the errors.

 

The problem with a low pitched roof is. A/ High winds driving the rain under the tiles. B/ Capillary action.

 

You need to get the roof tile "Spec. and fitting instructions" Not only the tile "Overlap" question ,but the lead flashing at the extensions abutment to the house may have to be increased as well.

If you look at the verge at each end of the extension you will be able to measure the "overlap" and likewise the lead flashing.

 

Do the drawings show "vent tiles and soffit vents ?

 

the contract was supplied with a drawing which states all materials to manufacturer specifications. The drawing just showed that there would be flat sections around the windows. There was nothing specifying the length or size of flashings or vent tiles. I am unsure if vent tiles have been installed

 

I purchases the windows and flashings and they are not rated to less than 15 degrees. I should be getting the courts deicision shortly and I will upload it when I get it. Shall I allow this roofer to "repair" the roof now or shall I wait?

 

If you look back to the first few pages of this thread I uploaded the contract drawing

[f16]

Hi Kinger122. I think Mike Hawk said wait for the court papers.

 

I've looked back on the thread but can only find a "Sketch", not a set of "Working Plans".

The "Vent tiles" will look like a "Mushroom" sticking out of a tile. Hence the nickname in the trade "Mushroom vent"

At the front edge of the roof (the eves) where the guttering is. The guttering is fitted to the "fascia board"

There is then a soffit board which is between the wall and the fascia.

This must have vents fitted to allow air up past the timbers and out of the "mushrooms"

No air circulation and the roof will "Sweat" and condensation will run down the under side of the Sarking felt.

 

IMHO. I can't see how this "roofer" is going to get this insured.

A lot of these type of insurance co.want to send out their own inspectors at various "Stages" to make sure the job is completed to a good standard.

 

How the hell can anyone see if the correct fixings (or indeed enough of them) were used on the rafters ?

Are there enough Plate ties ?....... The list is endless

That's why he won't get a proper insurance cert.

[Kinger122]

Hi Kinger122. I think Mike Hawk said wait for the court papers.

 

I've looked back on the thread but can only find a "Sketch", not a set of "Working Plans".

The "Vent tiles" will look like a "Mushroom" sticking out of a tile. Hence the nickname in the trade "Mushroom vent"

At the front edge of the roof (the eves) where the guttering is. The guttering is fitted to the "fascia board"

There is then a soffit board which is between the wall and the fascia.

This must have vents fitted to allow air up past the timbers and out of the "mushrooms"

No air circulation and the roof will "Sweat" and condensation will run down the under side of the Sarking felt.

 

IMHO. I can't see how this "roofer" is going to get this insured.

A lot of these type of insurance co.want to send out their own inspectors at various "Stages" to make sure the job is completed to a good standard.

 

How the hell can anyone see if the correct fixings (or indeed enough of them) were used on the rafters ?

Are there enough Plate ties ?....... The list is endless

That's why he won't get a proper insurance cert.

 

The sketch was all I was provided with, along with a written contract.

 

I don't think there are any vents at all. I can take pictures and upload them here if it will make things a bit easier? I can do that tomorrow afternoon.

[f16]

Kinger122, Yes that would be good. Load up some of the lead flashing where the extension joins the house as well.

It's difficult to advise you without enough info.

the more Photos the better.

 

Is the ceiling "Vaulted" or "Flat" ?

[f16]

The sketch was all I was provided with, along with a written contract.

 

What ???

Who carried out the calculations for "Load" to specify the size and grade of timbers used ?

[Kinger122]

I thought you meant if the company provided the calculations. I hired an architect who provided all the measurements and specifications which was accepted by building control

[Kinger122]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]50116[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]50117[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]50118[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]50119[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]50120[/ATTACH]

Kinger122, Yes that would be good. Load up some of the lead flashing where the extension joins the house as well.

It's difficult to advise you without enough info.

the more Photos the better.

 

Is the ceiling "Vaulted" or "Flat" ?

[Kinger122]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]50121[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]50122[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]50123[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]50124[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]50125[/ATTACH]

[Kinger122]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]50126[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]50127[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]50128[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]50129[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]50130[/ATTACH]