need help with DVLA regarding failure to notify . in court tomorrow1/10/2013 **Case Dropped**

[eisme]

hi all ..

 

very simple problem i hope.

 

i got a letter from DVLA saying failure to notify change of keeper in sept 2013. i sent dvla a letter stating i did send the v5 form to them but havent heard anything back from them and i am due to go to court on the 1/10/2013 (tomorrow).

 

i have decided to go to court and dispute this in person as i havent heard back from DVLA. is this the right thing to do ? and is there anything i need to know before i go to court ?

 

 

regards

iain

 

edit* more info.

i got the letter from DVLA regarding going to court in early sept of this yr(2013). this was news to me as i sold the car in feb(2013). i sold the car to a private buyer in feb and sent the v5 form off the next day . since then i havent heard anything from DVLA ,not even a tax reminder form . untill this letter turned up saying i have to go to court . as soon as i got this letter i rung the DVLA and they just said send it in a letter . so i did . i saw the letter snooplotty wrote on here and i edited it and sent it off. but i havent heard anything back and i have to go to court tomorrow .

 

i dont mind going to court ,as i know i sent it off ,also i sent my driving licence off at the same time for change off addy, but i havent had that back yet . the letter from DVLA reminded me of my licence . i forgot about it due to not having a car .

Edited September 30, 2013 by eisme
more info

[eisme]

i have to go to Canterbury magistrate court tomorrow at 2pm. so will write on here how it goes.

[caro]

I don't suppose that you kept proof if postage?

 

It'll be interesting to know how DVLA plan to prove this.

 

I went with a friend to court against DVLA and when we were called we had a chat with someone from DVLA before seeing the magistrate. He asked the circumstances and we got pretty much sorted before the hearing. Had we not bothered going the outcome would have been considerably worse so I think you're right to attend.

 

In all honesty I can't think of any advice but wish you well and look forward to hearing how you get on.

Edited September 30, 2013 by caro

[eisme]

I don't suppose that you kept proof if postage?

 

It'll be interesting to know how DVLA plan to prove this.

 

I went with a friend to court against DVLA and when we were called we had a chat with someone from DVLA before seeing the magistrate. He asked the circumstances and we got pretty much sorted before the hearing. Had we not bothered going the outcome would have been considerably worse so I think you're right to attend.

 

In all honesty I can't think of any advice but wish you well and look forward to hearing how you get on.

 

no dont have any proof of postage. never needed any proof in the past . you just fill it out and send it off and it gets done.

 

this is the 1st time its happened to me .

 

i know i sent the v5 off.

the thing i dont get is , the only time i have heard from the dvla is this court letter .

also with the letter it has keeper history details. on it it says that the date of acquisition for the new keeper was on 14/02/2013 date of disposal was 10/04/2013. so this must prove they had the v5 form from me to know the new owners details ?

[caro]

If not before court, certainly in there, you'll have the opportunity to put these points. It may be worth jotting everything down to make sure you don't forget anything.

[MaisyMouse]

Are there any other vehicles that you own that have been corrrectly updated using any of the available systems for renewing ?

 

If so it would be worth printing these details off for the court that confirm you normally have no issue and this is a 'one off' incident.

[eisme]

Are there any other vehicles that you own that have been corrrectly updated using any of the available systems for renewing ?

 

If so it would be worth printing these details off for the court that confirm you normally have no issue and this is a 'one off' incident.

 

no , no other vehicles. havent had a car since i sold the one in question .

[MaisyMouse]

no , no other vehicles. havent had a car since i sold the one in question .

 

What about previous years on the same vehicle then ?

[eisme]

only had the car for 7 months.

 

i've been driving since 96 and never had a issue like this .

[caro]

Another point to note down for court.

[MaisyMouse]

Could you testify you have never been in trouble before with the 'authority' that is the DVLA ?

 

and swear in court on it ?

 

You might suggest that hiring the venue, the beak, their attire and any entourage that is necessary to attend, plus the paperwork that got you there in the first place might be a waste of taxpayers money, if £80 is all you are asked to chuck in the pot at the end of it.

Be polite though.

[eisme]

yeah i could swear on that very easily.

 

i dont know how much the fine is or will be ,but it says on the letter the max that it could be is £1000 plus 90 quid for costs

[caro]

It said that on my friends paperwork. Ended up under £50 with no costs, and DVLA rep said it would have been about £500 had we not gone and explained circumstances. It was in large part DVLA fault but I can see no reason that any of this was your fault so try not to worry. Just keep calm and be polite and show that you're a reasonable responsible person.

[eisme]

well off to court in a few hours. think i have everything ready ( just some points i have written down to bring up ).

 

wish me luck . as to be honest . i am crapping myself

[caro]

If I'm not too late - good luck.

[eisme]

well i went to court.

 

the DVLA person took me into a interview room. and asked me if i know why i'm here, my reply was" yes i do know why i'm here,u lost my v5 that i sent to you ".(didnt go down to well with her)

 

they basicly said you can pay £35 out of court or go to court and pay upto £300.

 

i recorded the convo so will try and put it on here . or i will listen to it and try and write the whole conversation.

 

end result was its been put back till the 5th of nov 2013.( basicly a waste of my time )

[caro]

Of course you won't have to pay anything if the magistrate can see there's nothing to prove you're at fault!

 

If you hadn't gone you may have lost by default and at least you've had the experience for next time.

 

Why wasn't it finished with today?

[eisme]

Of course you won't have to pay anything if the magistrate can see there's nothing to prove you're at fault!

 

If you hadn't gone you may have lost by default and at least you've had the experience for next time.

 

Why wasn't it finished with today?

 

she said today was only for putting my plea in .

 

i'm trying to put the recording up but i'm unable to do it .

[eisme]

ok. so this is the conversation between myself and the two DVLA ppl. sorry its so long but i was in there for 15 mins .

 

 

 

DVLA; before we go into court we have a little chat with each attender, just to explain the offence to you. And to explain your choices for today. And to talk to you about weather you have any defence.

 

ME; ok

 

DVLA;do you understand the offence 1st off ?

 

ME. um yeah

 

DVLA; yeah. So what it is ,that on the 14/2/2013 of this year someone has told us that they have brought the car .previously in your name. They have reg it in their name and as a consequence we have fined you for not telling us you have sold the car .

 

So what is your plan for today guilty or not guilty ?

 

ME; not guilty

 

DVLA; and what defence have you got me love?

 

ME;that I sent the v5 form in when I sold the car in February .

 

DVLA; ok have you got any evidence of that ?

 

ME;no didn’t think you needed any .

 

DVLA; you should wait for the acknowledgement letter . Who did you sell it to dealership or private ?

 

ME; private

 

DVLA; the wording selling it privately states explicitly in the legalisation .that you have to deliver up the log book . Now that means not only putting it in the post but your reasonable for making sure the dvla get it .its only then if the dvla got or not , then within four weeks we send you a acknowledgement letter stating you are no longer the reg keeper of the car. If you haven’t done that ,its your duty as registered keeper to chase the dvla .

 

ME; but i'm not obliged to chase the 4 week letter .

 

DVLA; you are or when you have sold it privately. The wording in the legalisation is deliver up.

If you have been told otherwise , its often a symptom of going to forums and they get it wrong there quite a bit .

 

ME; oh ok

 

DVLA; its your responsibility in the legalisation to deliver. When you don’t do that ,when u dont chase it ….

 

ME; i've been driving 18 yrs and this is the 1st time this has happened . You send off the v5 and thats it.

 

DVLA; but its your responsibility for making sure your name gets taken off. To put it differently say al-right . You wouldnt like it if you got done for a speeding fine,so you make sure that your name gets taken off the system as you know someone else is driving it. So you still would be liable .

 

Now before we go into court we always give you a chance to pay the out of court settlement today and adjourn it for one more month to give you time to pay it . Are you interested in doing that today ?

 

ME;no

 

DVLA; you are still going to plead not guilty?

 

ME; yep

 

DVLA;ok that means we will adjourn for trail in one months time .

 

ME; ok. Im self-employed now so all this is costing me money .

 

DVLA; I understand that …...

 

ME; so ...as soon as I send that v5 off .thats it . I have sent it off .i posted it with royal mail .

 

As far as i'm concerned I send the v5 off and you receive it

 

DVLA; unfortunately that isn’t the case .

 

ME; well I sent the v5 off so i'm not pleading guilty

 

DVLA; that does mean will adjourn the trail til the 5th of November is the next date . So the court will send you a letter telling you have to turn up at that time .and that when you actually go to trail . We wont be having the trail today .

 

ME; HUH . Right ok . Why dont we have the trail today ?

 

DVLA; because today you put your plea in .

 

Ok my other colleague is going to have a word with ya .

 

Its at this point I am asked to follow another dvla person into another room

 

DVLA; I understand that you sold the car and posted off your notification

 

ME;yeah

 

DVLA;the legal obligation isnt just to post it . It to make sure it gets there .

 

ME; right ok

 

DVLA; i'll tell you how the legalisation came about . It goes back to the Jill Dando murder, there was a car parked there, that didnt have a keeper registered to it . And that hampered the police in the investigation . So the police and the government sat down and thought how do we make this more water tight .and what they came up with .is whos interest is it to make sure their name comes off the record .so they made the obligation,rather then just to post the information ,to make sure it gets there . Which is why dvla issue a receipt in 28 days if you havent got that as per to the instructions in the registration document .

Um you’ll notice dvla hasn’t received what you sent them and its up to you to chase it .

 

To have a successful defence . You dont have to prove you sent them . You have to prove dvla received it .

 

ME; right ok . So in future you send it off recorded .

 

DVLA;yes .then you will know we have received it .

 

Before we got to this stage, dvla offered you a chance to settle it out of court .

 

ME; the only letter I have got from dvla is the letter regarding goin to court.

 

DVLA;one went out before offering you the chance to settle it out of court . By paying a penalty fee.

 

ME; no I havent received anything . This is the 1st time i've heard about this.

 

DVLA;it offered you the chance to settle this out of court ,by paying a litigation fee of £30.

 

ME; but you cant guaranty I received it though .

 

DVLA; thats why i'm going to offer you it now .

 

ME; right ok

 

DVLA; i'm going to re-offer you the chance to settle out of court ,by putting the original litigated penalty of £35 , which is probably going to be your cheapest way round this .if you would like me to do that ?

 

ME; but if I plea not guilty

 

DVLA; if you plea not guilty . Come back to court on the trail date ,you have to prove that dvla received the document …

 

ME; well you have to prove I sent it .

 

DVLA; no I havent .as I said , because the obligation is to deliver the information up . I havent got to prove you sent it .

 

ME; this is stupid dvla are such a big company . They must misplace letters all the the time(DVLA;yeah) . And to charge me for you misplacing a letter is ridiculous.

 

DVLA; according to our records we havent received it .you didnt follow the guidance on the v5 document, in that you didnt chase the dvla when you didnt get the acknowledgement letter within the 28 days , so that where you have gone wrong .

 

Unless you can prove dvla received the document . You likely to lose this . In witch case there will be prosecution costs.

 

ME; i've got a month to figure this out

 

DVLA;in the mean time .i'll give you a slip of paper and you still have the chance to pay that £35 .

 

ME; ok.....whats the £35 for ?. Just admin costs?

 

DVLA; yeah its just a penalty if you like to settle out of court .

 

ME;ok . How many times does this happen ?

 

DVLA; what do you mean ?

 

ME;that somebody sends in a v5 and dvla say we havent received it so we will charge you £35.

 

DVLA; they were lots of these cases that go though.umm yeah there are a lot of cases go though.

 

ME; how many ?

 

DVLA; put in this way ,there is probably 40 in that list today .

 

ME; so 40 times 35 is quite a lot of money for the dvla then ?

 

DVLA;...........

 

ME; to say we havent received a letter

 

DVLA;not as much the £300 if you go to court and you get found guilty ..

 

END

[caro]

What I find odd is that they will register a vehicle to a new keeper even though the old keeper hasn't sent off paperwork to say they no longer own it - allegedly!

[zumbanikki]

from reading on here if there is no law to say you have to chase it up after 4 weeks and theres some law that says once its posted they have to prove that you didn't post it

[Tony P]

ME; but you cant guaranty I received it though .

 

Great comment !

 

I suppose there is the question "Are DVLA legally obliged to send an acknowledgement?" (I doubt it)

If not how can there be an obligation to chase them.

If there is such an obligation DVLA are the ones at fault - easily proven as if they claimed to have sent it that would mean they received your V5C

 

More seriously, look back at the cases of Paul Kennedy and that of Number 7, both well over a year ago. Different outcomes for different reasons but the threads cover salient points.

I will find links to them if you cannot find them.

[eisme]

right i have got a copy of my neighbours v5 form and nowhere on it does it say " deliver up"

[jmdnnlln]

Hi Just read your case and I'm REALLY surprised by the outcome so far....

Firstly let me explain, I or rather my son went to court at their REQUEST...not summoned.

 

From the onset of the letter I set out to find as much as possible and this site provided all my requirements.

We sold a car (beyond economical engine repair)

we sent off the v5,

we got a letter claiming someone was trying to register the car and if this was ok NO NEED TO RESPOND..so we didn't.

the next thing was Failure to notify fine £35.00...and then eventually a REQUEST to attend court.

 

We went prepared,:

 

Human Rights Act 1998, Schedule 1, Article 6, section 2

 

“Everyone charged with a criminal offense shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law. "

 

Interpretation act 1978:

 

Delivered in due course unless proven otherwise.

 

and then I researched how many letters are lost annually by the DVLA and the Royal Mail.

 

When we arrived at court, my son, my wife, and myself... the DVLA representative looked a little intimidated...but proceeded to ask about the circumstances,

AS we explained about the letter of acquisition by the new owner and pointed out it said 'you need not reply'

She asked to see the garage name who bought the car..... she then looked at our written defense (whilst writing down the garage name) and promptly dropped the case !!!!

 

Don't get me wrong she was a pleasant woman and I felt nothing towards her as she's only doing her job. But as i told my son

 

" NEVER EVER PLEAD GUILTY, IF YOUR NOT GUILTY"...regardless of ANY offers made...and regardless of the outcome....

 

Our case was last month and I hope your outcome works out like ours, but you MUST be prepared..

 

But do remember this is classed as a criminal offence, and may cause problems (doubtful) in the future.

[eisme]

thank you for your info. very helpful

 

i'm not that good with paperwork side of things . so learning as i go .

 

one thing does jump out at me .

 

is the acknowledgement letter does state on it that they is no need to respond to this letter .

 

so i wouldnt respond to the letter anyway .

 

either if i got the letter or if i didnt .

 

can i ask what was written in your defence?.

 

i have just tweeted DVLA to find out where i can find the litigation they keep going on about .

 

EDIT**

 

can anyone help me find the legalisation that the DVLA told me about ?

 

i have looked though the legalisation website but cant find where it says to deliver up.

this is what the DVLA lady said

 

"DVLA; the wording selling it privately, states explicitly in the legalisation .that you have to deliver up the log book .

 

Now that means not only putting it in the post but your reasonable for making sure the dvla get it .its only then if the dvla got or not , then within four weeks we send you a acknowledgement letter stating you are no longer the reg keeper of the car. If you haven’t done that ,its your duty as registered keeper to chase the dvla ."

Edited October 2, 2013 by eisme