lowell joined 3 debts [2 mobile, 1 credit card]made me BK, now want my house!!

[unclebulgaria67]

I cannot stress enough that the recent directions from the judge identified two preliminary issues that need to be determined before the actual appeal itself is considered. This is not the one and only chance for the OP to put her substantive case, unless the court decides that she shouldn't be given an extension of time to appeal.

 

The OP has not followed the rules and the judge just wants to know why at this stage.

 

The decks are stacked against ordinary people who do not have the means or cannot find good legal help via legal aid/pro bono.

 

The silly system of having to pay over £1000 for court transcripts just makes this worse. If you can't get the transcripts in time or cannot afford them, you are handicaped in making appeals.

 

Judges are aware of this and I expect while some are sympathetic, they will adhere to the rules and will not deviate from them without good reason.

 

At stake here is a potential debt of £30k including trustee costs, when the original debts were a few combined debts totalling about £1600 which are subject to dispute. There is suggestion that the main debt may not even be above the £750 threshold and the other debts are not even owed by wendyboats. wendyboats was not properly served the bankruptcy petition, because she was away from her permanent residence dealing with a family emergency. Yet the Judge has accepted at petition the method of service and has totally dismissed arguments raised at appeal, without any substantive issues about the debts even being looked at.

 

The courts have let wendyboats down and don't appear to want to help her with the situation.

[unclebulgaria67]

Hope this worked I have taken out personal info...Please let me know your views please Wendy xx

 

Wendy

 

It needs to be made more brief.

 

1) I was not made aware at the appeal hearing on x date at Southampton that I could appeal further, either by the court or by my Solicitor or a trainee Barrister acting for me. It was only via research including reading a number of internet consumer forums, that I could seek to appeal. His honour x, should be aware that the Judge his honour x at appeal, also dealt with the bankruptcy petition on x date, the petition of which I was not present, as I had not been served the said petiton, as I was away from my normal residence due to a family emergency.

 

2) This is the bit that needs to more brief. ( Going by comments about Judges people have made. They don't like internet forums that give legal 'advice'. If I were you, I would not mention CAG or any other internet forum, as the source of 'advice'. You could say that through Consumer forums and other information online, you have attempted to put together a case for further appeal. Then say that due to your limited financial position, you have not been able to find any Solicitor who has been willing to take it to appeal . One Solicitors x company based in x said in x month that they would like to help with the appeal and they the pulled out due to the trustee in bankruptcy issuing a letter which gave 14 days. It appeared that as soon as Solicitors ( who were well known to BW Legal) had taken on the case, that the trustee suddenly decided to put pressure on and this caused the Solicitors to pull out, as they could not put the appeal together in a short space of time.

 

I can't remember all of what happened. But it appeared that as soon as the Solicitors in Brighton became involved, pressure was put on , which caused the Solicitors to pull out. You could say that the firm of Solicitors were well known to BW Legal and very possibly Lowell Group, as they have dealt with a lot of insolvency proceedings brought by BW Legal/Lowell, with some success. Once the Solicitors had pulled out, suddenly some of the pressure applied by the trustee was stopped. There was then no 14 day time period, in which they would be taking action.

 

I think you need to make a bit more of this and then the other points needs to be bullet after points, because they don't relate to the questions the Judge asked you.

[unclebulgaria67]

There is no such thing as a "trainee Barrister". A "Pupil" is still a Barrister they just haven't got tenancy yet.

 

I was just using the term given. But this is a useful correction.

[unclebulgaria67]

As promised, I'm reading through it now, wendyboats.

 

DD

 

The interesting time period is when wendyboats involved the Sols based in Brighton. If my suspicions are correct, as soon as they got involved, suddenly more pressure was applied by the Trustee in bankruptcy. When the Sols stopped acting for wendyboats, the pressure was taken off.

 

Makes me think that BW Legal/Lowells and trustee in bankruptcy are working with the same mind. Stop wendyboats from appealing, as if any appeal were to succeed, they would all lose considerable potential income. Not sure about the ethics of this, if true. Does not seem right to me.

[unclebulgaria67]

This point is very true uncle as Sols quit sending back Bundle on the 9th of October. 2 days after the 14 days were up on the 16th of October was when Trustee sent "Without prejudice" e-mail wanting to talk with my ex-husband!

 

 

So you are spot on here WB xxx

 

I think you need to at least mention this time period a bit more. The trustee was applying pressure to sell the house, when it looked like Solicitors were going to assist with a further appeal. As soon as the Solicitors withdrew helping with the appeal, the trustee in bankruptcy stopped this action. It cannot be a coicidence.

 

Also the point mentioned by DD, about BW Legal not providing documents for a year and only then providing them a day before the appeal hearing.

[unclebulgaria67]

Hi Godmother, it is part of their claim, but was never proven as to being my debts, I have never ever had contract phones as alleged. WB x

 

Have you considered contacting the mobile phone companies ( if BW legal have provided account references) for a Data Protection subject access request ? At some point, hopefully your appeal will be allowed or if you want to take this further and you could do with having all the information available.

[unclebulgaria67]

Hi all,

No news as yet from Chancery Appeal Judge, How long do you think it will be before I hear anything, I know they are very busy and I only sent Wednesday ?

 

 

I suspect it will be a couple of weeks at least, but I am not anyone would know this, even if you phoned the court.

 

It is a real shame that the Southampton court transcripts are not easily obtainable, as then the Appeal Judge could see for themselves, whether your last appeal was given a proper hearing. Without the transcripts it may be presumed that the Judge allowed a fair hearing.

 

How is your search for a barrister going ? I suppose getting anyone for a reduced fee, legal aid or pro bono is almost impossible for this type of situation.

[unclebulgaria67]

Thanks Uncle for above,

 

Just out of interest, Why are Southampton court transcripts not easily obtainable ? I have no problem obtaining transcript as far as I am aware, its just paying for it I have a problem with !

 

I understand from letters from Chancery courts in London, if my appeal is granted they will look into paying for transcript out of public funds.

 

I have a couple of Barristers waiting in the wings, depends on outcome re; Appeal being granted if I will need one yet or not !

 

It should not be a problem I have been told, but a problem it seems to have been ? I have not quite given up on Pro-Bono yet, still got a few option to look at .

 

Kind Regards Wendyboats aka Watson xx

 

Not easily available, meaning free or cheap and available quickly. Making it expensive means that people of limited means may be denied the justice they deserve.

[unclebulgaria67]

Hi everyone,

 

 

Today I received a letter from Chancery appeal office stating the Judge has considered my letter and has noted that there has yet to be a judgement of the lower court filed, he has requested I make an urgent enquiry with Southampton courts as to whether a Judgement was given. If one was not given forward a letter from office confirming such.

 

 

I am very, very confused and not sure what he means any idea's ? Kind regards Wendy aka Watson still on the case xxxxxxxx

 

I suspect it relates to the last application you made to Southampton. Did you pay a fee to Southampton court for them to consider something ?

 

The Chancery Appeal Office have obviously noted on the system that you made an application to Southampton, but no judgement is recorded.

 

Suggest that you contact Southampton court on Tuesday to find out what is going on.

[unclebulgaria67]

I think, assuming you can evidence your finances at the moment of demand, you should include within any future correspondence with the court. Not sure you can undo the costs associated with insolvency as the creditor is protected by the judgment and there is plenty of authority on the subject, but if you were never insolvent its difficult to understand how the petition progressed.

 

I'm not confident in your appeal of an appeal as it seems an abuse of process (however unfair that may be). Perhaps if you could winkle some answers from the sols you spoke to last year it may shed some light on why it dropped the ball and if there are any alternate options open to you.

 

The appeal is to a higher court to overturn the bankruptcy petition on the basis it should never have been granted.

 

As far as I remember the bankruptcy petition was granted in absence and when Wendy appealed she had a useless Solicitor who appeared to make a case about Wendy being away when the SD/petition were served. The Judge who granted the petition also heard the appeal and dismissed it out of hand, not letting the Solicitor representing Wendy make any further arguments.

 

Bad system when someone can be made bankrupt for a debt that can be evidenced as not being owed or is below the threshold. They then appeal using a Solicitor who appeared out of their depth and are now struggling to get a Judge to review what has happened.

 

Leads me to believe that the courts/legal system is only there for people who can afford it.

[unclebulgaria67]

I don't think there is any point in pursuing the PPI now.

 

I am concerned that some of the papers have apparently been lost and they may have made a difference to the order if [this] judge had seen them.

 

It might be worth continuing the PPI complaint against the original creditors. I think Wendy started this. If you remember, I believe Wendy submitted an insurance claim to actually use the PPI, but this was mislaid. Therefore the PPI was of no use to Wendy, as the OC did not even consider any claim against it. Wendy has since pursued a complaint to get the PPI premiums back ?

 

I am no legal expert, but I think the only avenue open to Wendy is to pursue an oral hearing with a high court judge, where she can show that she was not insolvent at the time of the bankruptcy petition and that the debts were disputed, so should not have been subject to bankruptcy. The problem is that Judges are bounds by loads of procedural rules, which appear designed to protect the interest of people who will make money from the bankruptcy.

[unclebulgaria67]

Wendy

 

I am no expert here, but my reading of this is that you cannot as your main argument go over old ground by stating exactly the same in a different way. The Judge has decided that because you have had two Solicitors and a court look at your circumstances, that they have seen nothing new in which to annul the bankruptcy.

 

From what I have seen online, where people have sought to annul a bankruptcy using s.282 of the insolvency act, they have done so using exceptional circumstances that the lower court Judge would not have been aware at the time of the original petition and any subsequent appeal. There was a case where a bankrupt was proven to not have the required level of mental capacity to deal with the bankruptcy and a high court Judge agreed to annul.

 

You may have to explain to the high court Judge exactly what you were having to deal with at the time with your Daughter and Grandson. For you to do this, you may need letters from Social Services, Healthcare professionals and others who were involved, letting the Judge know of the exceptional circumstances and why you were not around to deal with any bankruptcy. If you were seeing your GP at the time about any personal health issues, you should also include this information and get a letter from your GP as well.

 

This will be your main reason for appeal and then you can add more details about the issues you have mentioned before.

 

You will see that high court Judges are very reluctant to annul, because of the trustees in bankruptcies expenses and how these are dealt with after annulment. There are a number of articles about this online, which I am sure the Judges have in their minds when looking at appeals.

 

In my non expert view, you are going to have to put together an exceptional compelling case about your personal circumstances at the time. I am not sure evidence of not being insolvent and general points about the debts would be enough, as the Judge will just view it that this has all been looked at before, whether or not it has been at all or properly.

[unclebulgaria67]

Wendy

 

There is a government minister responsible for involvency ( Jenny Willott ), but she won't get involved in a current court case. The government are currently looking into the fees charged by Trustees in bankruptcy. Perhaps you should contact TV stations about this. BBC Panorama [email protected]

[unclebulgaria67]

Wendy

 

Re the mobile phone contracts, presumably your bank can confirm that you have never had any Direct Debit Authority for the mobile companies concerned. You claim that you have never had any such contracts and the mobile companies say that they don't have any paperwork.

 

Perhaps an SAR to Lowells about the debts might reveal what information they received about the debts.

[unclebulgaria67]

I have already requested all above Uncale b ,

 

 

As I never had a contract for either mobile, its understandable why they do not have this, WB X

 

I think you need to dig into this a bit more. You have been advised that they have no information about a contract, because they don't keep information that long. Most companies keep archived records for up to 20 years or more. It is just that staff will only look at available records. If they really had to, they would also check archives.

 

If any of these were with Vodafone, Lee the CAG site rep for Vodafone, may be willing to help.

[unclebulgaria67]

Wendy

 

Another question. What was the approx period between the date the SD was served and the bankruptcy petition ?

[unclebulgaria67]

Evening Mouldy sorry for late reply to above,

 

 

I sent off the request for a Variation and Oral hearing on Monday and put what you advised prior to above, I hope I have not messed up ?

 

 

Regards two mobile phones I sent off SAR last year as advised here on forum, Also the Solicitor requested same, but nothing has been sent ?

 

 

Lowell's and BW Legal said as much as its not available now, and kind of half admitted they never would, but then back tracked and said it was not needed as I did not defend claim at first hearing, and Judge agreed ? Can you advise me on above please.

 

 

Also thanks Mike and Uncle b for above input.

 

 

Regards WB aka Watson still on the case.............But weary xxxxxxxxxxx

 

Wendy

 

As Mould suggests I think you will have to contact the ICO to make a complaint that the 2 mobile companies have not completed your Data Protection Act Subject Access Requests properly and you are facing very serious consequences as a result. Make them fully aware of what you are facing and ask the ICO to make urgent requests to the 2 mobile companies to look again at the SAR's you previously sent them, seeing if any data is held in your name. If there is no record of any debt or contracts in your name, ask that the Data Protection Officer at the mobile companies to confirm this in writing, so that it may be provided to the court.

[unclebulgaria67]

Wendy

 

If you have already paid £10 for an SAR to these phone companies and they did not do them properly, you should not have to pay again. Hence the reason why I suggested that you contact the ICO to see if they would intervene. They may be willing to contact the Data Protection Officers at these companies to make urgent requests for the information needed, given that it will be needed for your court hearing.

 

If you can prove that you never had these phone contracts and Lowells have made a massive mistake in including them for bankruptcy, I think a barrister would make a really good argument that the bankruptcy should be annulled, without you being liable for any of the costs, including the trustee in bankruptcy costs.

 

Good news about the oral hearing.

[unclebulgaria67]

The Mould

 

I would think the Judge would want evidence of a defective default notice issued by CapOne in regard to what you have said.

 

Would this be enough for a Judge to annull a bankruptcy and stop Wendy facing trustee in bankruptcy charges ? Hopefully the Barrister that acts for Wendy can put a case together. What troubles me more is the lack of documents that BW Legal/Lowells had at the time the bankruptcy petition was served. Surely a Judge would not think that it would be proper for any creditor to file bankruptcy against someone, when they are not in possession of relevant paperwork for the debt. There is no evidence that Wendy had these 2 mobile phone contracts. If they are found to belong to someone else, I suspect that BW Legal/Lowells would be in a spot of bother.

[unclebulgaria67]

Bit unfair that an uncontested SD with possible inaccurate debt information cannot be considered by a court. These 2 mobile phone contacts might belong to Father Christmas.

 

I have a feeling that if the bankruptcy is annulled due to a faulty default notice, that the trustee in bankruptcy costs will stilll be live and kicking, with an argument about who is responsible for these. If BW Legal and Lowells did not have all the paperwork at the time they issued the SD and bankruptcy petition, the courts should look to them to meet all the costs.

[unclebulgaria67]

Pleased to see you back on here WB, best of luck

 

Yes good luck Wendy.

[unclebulgaria67]

Have you ever sent a SAR to the receiver Wendy? You really need an itemised breakdown of every penny charged. Every phone call, every letter, every hourly rate used. I think a CPR request is in order, or ask the judge to order a clearly itemised breakdown of costs.

 

As the house is in joint names I don't believe it can be repossessed.

 

Hopefully others more legally minded than me can comment and advise.

 

Can you confirm what you sent to the court please. Was it what Mould suggested earlier in the thread?

 

 

This link is worth reading.

 

http://www.crippslink.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=691:protecting-jointly-owned-home-trustee-bankruptcy&catid=77:insolvency-corporate-recovery&Itemid=537

 

I am sure that Paul Lewis from BBC's Moneybox programme highlighted a very similar case to Wendys and how difficult it is to get out of the situation. Once they have got their hands on a case they can make money from, they will fight for as long as it takes.

 

It might be worth contacting Paul Lewis just in case he can give you details of who you might be able to contact to gain specialist help. The problem is that most of the speclialists appear to work for claimant creditors, trustees in bankruptcy and not those who have been made bankrupt. So the system is one side against the person who needs the help the most.

[unclebulgaria67]

Do you know what market value for the house the trustee in bankruptcy was advised ? I remember reading awhile back that they had a valuation done on the house. Would the debt owed by anywhere near 50% of the house value ?

 

Perhaps there is a way that your ex husband can put a block on any forced sale of the house and perhaps he should look to see if he has any Home Insurance which has legal cover, which might assist. I have looked online for community type legal help and the Southampton area appears to be a desert, when other parts of the country have many.

[unclebulgaria67]

Thanks Uncle,

She had one done recently and valued at £150.000. She states I have equity of £47,000 but this is going to be disputed by ex who had put more into house than I by £10.000 and also paid for windows heating and other improvements. He has paid all insurances and other monthly outgoings since 2007.

 

 

He recently changed house insurances during all this so that might have a impact on them helping ? WB

 

The Home Insurance legal cover that would be relevant would the one he had at the time of first finding out that the house was at risk. This might be when the trustee in bankruptcy Solicitors contacted him about whether he wanted to buy your share of the house.

[unclebulgaria67]

So do you mean he should contact the one he had prior ? or the new one Uncle ?

 

The one he had prior, if it has legal cover. With legal cover, the actual legal issue has to have occured during the period of Insurance. So my guess is that this would be when he was contacted by the Solicitors for the Trustee and was made aware that the house he part owns was at risk.