Train fine/prosecution for not producing a ticket?

[buzzar]

I am from Cardiff and travel using the Arriva Trains Wales Network

(from Radyr Station to Cardiff Queen Street Station if this helps)

 

about a month ago I got on a train at Station A and traveled to Station B.

I did not buy a ticket at Station A because I knew I could either get a ticket from the conductor on the train or at Station B.

 

 

However, since no conductor was present on the train that day (at least not in the carriage) I decided I could then buy my ticket at Station B.

 

I'm at Station B waiting in the queue to buy the ticket.

I asked for a return from Station A to Station B.

The man said that he couldn't offer me a ticket and that I had to talk to another man, who just so happened to be a Transport Investigator.

 

 

He took me aside and accused me of having intent to avoid paying a train fare.

I fail to see how this could be possible because I was just in the queue trying to buy a ticket, where I was refused a ticket only to then be cautioned for not having a ticket?

 

 

This doesn't make sense because the reason I didn't have a ticket is because you wouldn't sell me one?

It's not like I tried to leave the Station without paying,

in which case I would own up to having no intent to pay a train fare and accept any consequences.

(I compare this his to a shop where you don't pay for each item as you are walking around, you pay at the end.

If you leave the shop without paying,

then you have no intent to pay for those items and only then should you be treated as a criminal)

 

the other day I got a letter in the post stating there was enough evidence to warrant a prosecution and I may have to appear in court to receive a fine.

 

 

Would my story hold up in court?

It's not like a have a criminal record at current

and I usually buy a seasonal ticket

(and have done for several years)

but this travel was a one off journey and I have in the past, as well as other people, brought a ticket at my destination Station or on the train.

 

 

Would the fact that they refused to sell my a ticket before I was pulled aside make any difference,

surely this shows that I obviously did have some intent to purchase a ticket?

I don't see the point of having these ticket facilities at the destination Station if they're going to refuse me a ticket anyway.

 

I think the offense in which they are trying to accuse of is show in the Railway ByeLaw Section 18(1).

However, I feel this is a very bad law and should be changed to suit the views of modern train passengers who travel on trains with the idea that they can be sold a ticket on the train or at their destination.

 

 

The law should only be able to prosecute people who actually refuse to pay for a ticket/don't have means of paying for a ticket/try to leave the Station without paying for a ticket.

 

Sorry for rambling,

but I really don't feel like I have committed a criminal offence and really don't want to have a criminal record from this.

Is there any point appealing this conviction or would it make no difference or would the fact that I'm appealing make it look like I'm guilty?

Would my history of buying seasonal ticket for many years count in my favour?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice you could offer me!

[buzzar]

Sorry for the double post!

 

Just wanted to say, feel free to question me if you think I'm lying. I'm more than happy to clarify anything and I won't take any offense.

 

Cheers!

[Feebee_71]

Why didn't you buy a ticket at station A?

Was there no working ticket machine or were you running late and wanting to avoid missing your train?

You say there was no conductor in the carriage. Did you look down the rest of the train to try and find the conductor/guard to purchase a ticket?

 

From what I've read on this forum it's not enough to say you didn't have time to purchase a ticket before boarding a train if there are sufficient facilities at the station for you to do this nor that you didn't see someone to try and buy a ticket from you have to actively seek them out or risk being accused as you have been.

 

Others who are more knowledgeable than I will hopefully be along soon to offer their advice,

 

Feebee_71

[Old-CodJA]

Yes Feebee, you are spot-on.

 

If there are factilities available to obtain a ticket at the traveller's starting station, the obligation is on the traveller to use them. Being in a rush or late, or not wanting to go to a ticket office or machine is not a valid excuse for not getting a ticket.

 

The TOC does not need to prove intent to avoid a fare in order to secure a conviction by the Magistrates.

 

They can charge the traveller with a breach of Byelaw 18.1, which simply requires the prosecution to prove that the traveller boarded the train without a ticket when there were ticket facilities available to them

[Feebee_71]

Thanks for confirming that OC,

 

Hopefully the OP will be back soon with answers to the questions and will be able to give you more information so you, and others, can offer suggestions for assistance.

 

Feebee_71

[firstclassx]

1) Transport Investigations Ltd will "manage" this prosecution on behalf of Arriva Trains Wales.

2) Radyr railway station has a part time ticket office, (06:30-13:00), but also has a self service ticket machine, available for use at all times.

3) Arriva Trains Wales actively promotes the "Buy before you ride" message and posters warn of consequences of failing to do so.

4) A Railway Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) prosecution should succeed, based on the circumstances described.

5) The OP has no valid defence. Intent is irrelevant.

 

The OP is in fantasy land if he genuinely believes that people should just be able to board a train and only pay on demand. What happens if you get off at an unstaffed station?

 

Therefore try to make arrangements to settle out of court or alternatively wait for a summons.

[buzzar]

Thank you all for your reply, I guess I was just in a bad mood yesterday and didn't want to admit anything. But now I agree that I really should have brought a ticket BEFORE travelling on the train.

 

Instead of appealing I am going to write a letter of apology, stating that I was in the wrong and that I won't be making this mistake again in the future. I'm also going to ask if this matter could be dealt with outside of court and that I'm willing to pay any unpaided fares and administration costs. Do you think this is the sensible option? I wasn't aggressive in any way to the staff that questioned me and I'm going to admit my fault and pay anything I owe, so I don't see why they should fight back against me for doing this?

 

Thanks again for clearing everything up for me, everyone gave great detail in there answer and I really appreciate it.

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

Good for you, that's exactly the sort of thing the guys here advise to write.

 

I bet you won't be doing this again.

 

Good luck with it and post back if you need more help with the letter or their reply.

 

My best, HB

[buzzar]

Any idea of the sort of thing that I should be mentioning in this letter?

 

I've got a basic structure and just asking a few people for suggestions as to how to make it some more professional, etc.

 

EDIT:

Also, my girlfriend was travelling with me on this day and I was being a gentleman offering to buy her ticket. She is currently travelling abroad and won't be back for a number of weeks. Would it be appropriate to send a letter on her behalf, with her consent of course. I've got her reference number, etc.

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

I'm not sure about what you can do about your girlfriend, but I expect the guys will know.

 

If you wanted to, you could post up a suggested wording, minus personal details. I have one suggestion from seeing this before, rather than say you're willing to pay, etc, ask if they would be willing to let you.

 

I hope there will be more replies for you later.

 

HB

[buzzar]

I'm not going to use this as an argument (although I will mention it in my letter) but I have in the past brought a ticket at Queen Street station when travelling from Radyr (aka not buying a ticket before I got on the train) and not been stopped/questioned/etc.

And, I'm sure if I go in tomorrow and try to buy a ticket at Queen Street station then they will sell me a ticket without asking me why I don't already have one.

 

I don't see how they can enforce a rule on a single day and then not on other days? Either you enforce the rule all the time or not at all. Anyone have an opinion on this?

[dreadpiratesteve]

Simple, the Revenue Protection teams are only so many people and are often moving about between the different stations. Often they are assigned where the TOC views the most likely occurrences of ticketless travel etc. Using information from guards/ station staff plus going by events that have a large volume of passengers travelling by train. Im sure First Class or OC will explain better!

[firstclassx]

In the case of Arriva Trains Wales, the reason for differing outcomes is down to the way staff are allocated.

 

Revenue Protection Assistants (RPAs) are generally trained in basic revenue protection techniques, like Unpaid Fare Notices, excess fares etc. If equipped with an Avantix machine, they should only sell full, undiscounted fares to those arriving from a station with ticket facilities. Alternatively, they may direct the customer to the excess fare office who should apply the same conditions.

 

There are often only 1/2 members of RPAs at each gateline, therefore because of the sheer number of customers, especially at Cardiff area stations, they are more likely to just make you buy a ticket. Each gated station on the ATW network has Revenue Protection Assistants in attendance whilst the gates are operational. At other times they may roam trains assisting conductors selling tickets on busy trains. They can, like any rail staff, demand your name and address, should they believe you have committed, or have tried to commit, an offence. If RPIs (below) are present, the RPAs will direct you to them instead. Ultimately, a lone RPA has to supervise the gateline whilst answering constant questions etc, so they simply haven't got the time to deal with the amount of people who could be reported. In addition, a lone RPA could be putting himself in a position of danger if the customer is aggressive.

 

ATW also has Revenue Protection Inspectors. These are based in London but are contracted to patrol the entire ATW network, as required. The network is massive, from Holyhead/Llandudno/Chester to Cardiff/Swansea/Birmingham and every shack in between. There are only around 10-15 RPIs, so they tend to stick together in large groups and target specific areas for a week or so, e.g. spend 1 week in North Wales, 1 week in Shrewsbury/Crewe/Midlands, 1 week in South Wales etc.

RPIs are PACE trained and will caution customers who have committed an offence.

 

It is quite effective, because after these large revenue protection exercises, word gets round for the next month or two, and the problem is resolved. By the time people start thinking it was a one off event, and resume buying at the other end/on board, the next exercise has begun.

 

Large interchange stations like Chester/Cardiff/Birmingham are particularly effective locations.

Edited February 10, 2013 by firstclassx

[Old-CodJA]

I'm sure if I go in tomorrow and try to buy a ticket at Queen Street station then they will sell me a ticket without asking me why I don't already have one.

 

If you have been reported for prosecution and therefore have been made fully aware of the rules, why would you not buy a ticket before travelling and risk a second prosecution?

[buzzar]

It was a "what if?" statement. At the moment I have a seasonal ticket which I use at Queen Street station.

 

I just wanted to make the fact that if I had gone to the station this week and done exactly what I did in the week I was cautioned, nothing would have happened.

 

 

Also the fact that there are probably hundreds of people doing exactly what I did and not getting cautioned now.

It must be different for ATW because I know many people who choose to buy there ticket on the train or at the destination station becuase they know this is what they have done in the past.

 

 

I'm not trying to start an arguement sorryy, just wanted to make a point.

 

It doesn't really matter now anyway.

I've sent my letter of apology, admiting my wrong and stating that I want to settle this matter out of court by asking for any arrangements they have for me to pay any outstanding fares and fees that I owe. Hopefully they should get back to me soon and this can be sorted without any hassle.

Edited February 11, 2013 by buzzar

[Old-CodJA]

OK, it seems that the TOC have achieved their aim, you now have a ticket before travelling and now and in the future you will benefit from the reduced fare that a season ticket provides.

[buzzar]

The travel I made in regard to the letter I received was just a one off.

 

 

Normally I travel into Cardiff daily and so get a seasonal ticket.

 

 

I've been doing this for years, but whenever I need to travel in for a single day, a return ticket is the only appropiate ticket I can get. This ticket is one I usually purchase on board the train or at Queen Street.

[Old-CodJA]

OK, but that's not going to alter he fact that the signs at stations, on posters and timetables intruct that the ticket must be purchased before boarding and that doesn't matter whether it's a season ticket or a day ticket. You'll just have to wait and see what happens.

[buzzar]

Any idea how long it will take to receive a reply letter back from the train investigation company, if I get a reply at all?

It took them over a month to send the first letter, from the day I was cautioned at the station to the day that I received the letter (even though I was told within 5 working days by the person who questioned me?)

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

I hope the guys will be along soon to give you an idea of when you might hear. If they were to advise ringing, although this is probably a bit soon, do you have a number and a case reference?

 

Fwiw, the first letter usually takes 4-6 weeks, so the person who questioned you may have been mistaken.

 

HB

[Grotesque]

Don't worry about what the feller at the station 'said'. The turn-around gets quicker at each stage; viz. at each stage you provide them incrementally with more information and therefore it gets easier to make a decision / speed the process along. Say, a couple of weeks max.

 

*On edit: Of course it all depends on variables, staffing levels, holidays, AoG etc.

[buzzar]

I promised that I'd post on this forum when I got a reply so here I am.

 

Got a letter in the post this morning; looks a standard letter which made no appropriate comments to the letter I sent them in reply to their first letter.

 

 

Although I’m a bit disappointed they made no effort to personally address the issues I brought up, I understand that they must get hundreds of letters a day.

 

Anyway, the letter stated that because I had no previous records with them that I could simply pay the unpaid fare along with all administration cost.

 

 

This came to a total of £42.50.

I have no idea how they came up with this figure, seems a bit ridiculous to me but I'm just going to pay it and move on with my life.

 

 

Hopefully they'll use the money to improve the rail network and not their wages.

So thank you everyone for your help, hopefully you won’t hear from me again.

[Feebee_71]

I would say, going by the figures given by some on here who are offered the chance to settle for an administrative penalty rather than face court, you've been made a very generous offer and are right to accept it.

 

Glad the matter is now sorted to your satisfaction.

 

Feebee_71