Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
    • Not sure what to make of that or what it means for me, I was just about to head to my kip and it's a bit too late for legalise. When is the "expenditure occured"?  When they start spending money to write to me?  Or is this a bad thing (as "harsh" would imply)? When all is said and done, I do not have two beans to rub together, we rent our home and EVERYTHING of value has been purchased by and is in my wife's name and we are not financially linked in any way.  So at least if I can't escape my fate I can at least know that they will get sweet FA from me anyway   edit:  ah.. Sophia Harrison: Time bar decision tough on claimants WWW.SCOTTISHLEGAL.COM Time bar is a very complex area of law in Scotland relating to the period in which a claim for breach of duty can be pursued. The Scottish government...   This explains it like I am 5.  So, a good thing then because creditors clearly know they have suffered a loss the minute I stop paying them, this is why it is "harsh" (for them, not me)? Am I understanding this correctly?  
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

No electricity meter - 8 years on we have contact from Scottish Power!


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 4135 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Hi,

 

I am looking for a bit of advice on electricity meters, or lack thereof!

 

We bought a small one bed flat in 2004 and we discovered that it didn't have an electricity meter we could find. This wasn't flagged up at the time of sale so it took us a few weeks before we made this discovery. At the time we thought this might be because some years earlier the communal hallway had been done out by the council. So we phoned the local council who said this was under the jurisdiction of the electricity companies. However on calling around a few of them each of them said we weren't their customer and we should contact the council if this was due to their refurbishing. So ultimately no body came out and no body followed this up.

 

As a side note, some years prior to our moving in our flat had been "built" as a once bigger flat was split into two. Therefore there was a bit of confusion over our address which took some time to be sorted out as well. When we talked to our neighbour she also said she had no meter and had made efforts previously but to no avail.

 

Anyway as time marched in we never did anything more about this issue, which on reflection was a bad move on our part.

 

We now rent this flat out to a tenant who recently informed us that a gentleman from Schneider Electric Energy, on behalf of Scottish Power, had been to look at the electricity supply in our building (there are 8 flats in total in our building) due to a power outage. I doing that he had asked to see our electricity meter and she of course informed him that there wasn't one. He then asked for the landlords, ourselves, to get in touch.

 

Whilst we are relieved that this issue might finally be sorted out, it has always been a huge source of guilt for us, we are also terrified as to what might happen.

 

Given that we purchased our flat in 2004 we have no actual evidence of our contacting the electricity companies in those initial few months.

 

Any advice as to how we should best go about rectifying this, including any legal titbits or advice, would be very gratefully received. We would be especially interested in hearing from those who have perhaps had similar things happen to them in the past, how you managed this situation and the outcome. We intend to get in touch with the gentlemen in the next few days but wanted to do a bit of research beforehand so we knew best how to handle it - forewarned is forearmed and all that!

 

Thanks in advance :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

We have a Scottish Power Rep on the forums, I will send a message to him to look in on you.

 

Meanwhile I will alert site team for you as well to see if they have any advice.

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

Link to post
Share on other sites

Same thing happened to us , we Brought a property that did have a key meter when we moved in and we asked our supplier to remove it which they did .

 

We totally forgot all about it after that , but 8 years after the meter was removed i received a Bill for just over 12k for the last 8 years Electric we used .

 

I rang that day to see what the hell was going on and again they demanded the 12k for the last 8 years , even sending me a final demand for the outstanding .

 

One last phone call and spoke to a Supervisor who told me the law states they can only charge me 24 months and not the full 8 years .

 

That still came to just under 2k and was given 2 years to pay back the money .

 

Sorted !

Link to post
Share on other sites

The back billing limit is 12 months, not 24 - http://www.consumerfocus.org.uk/files/2010/01/Back-billing-2012.pdf

 

 

How do they calculate a figure for this if there's no meter?

Edited by AnnoyedByDCAs
add link now I have 10 posts to do it
Link to post
Share on other sites

If there are others involved, you had probably better start by getting them altogether to discuss it an to agree a course of action.

 

You will do better as a group rather than allowing yourselves to be picked on one by one.

 

The next thing is to try and find out which company it is which says that it is the supplier.

 

I think that there is no question but that you will have to pay electricity arrears as you have been using it.

 

Also, it is going to look very bad in court that you haven't sorted it out by now - 8 years since you moved into the property. You don't have much moral highground. You had better start getting some.

 

As this has gone on for 8 years, it may well be that 2 years of it is statute barred. I would keep this up your sleeve for the time-being. Don't play it yet - and frankly it might be an idea - if things get tough to offer to pay those two years as well as a sign of good faith.

 

Of course, you are helped somewhat as the electricity company has a duty also to keep on top of things and not to let this kind of thing happen. Have you any evidence in writing that you did try to deal with the electricity companies? It would be helpful if you did,

 

Your objective should be to get a meter installed and to agree a reasonable arrears and to pay it off in as reasonable installments as possible without taking too long.

If you can keep it out of court then it will effectively be an interest free loan. If it goes to court - then they will win and get interest as well.

 

Frankly, there must be a meter somewhere. Maybe in one of the flats - serving the whole building. I think that you need to get an electricity professional to hunt for it - but independent - not from one of the companies.

Find out which company thinks is your supplier.

 

You need to try and work out what your reasonable consumption has been. You may need to ask others in similar buildings.

 

At some point you will need to write to the electricity company. Explain what has happened, and start paying voluntarily a reasonable sum per month - starting off with a decent lump sum as a gesture.

Even if they won't accept it, you must try and find a way to pay so that it is clear that you are trying to rediuce the problem and that if there is any problem, it is caused by them and not you.

 

Get a meter installed for your own flat as soon as possible.

Maybe you can agree that the first metered year for you will be used as a model for calculating the previous years.

 

You need to sort it and you need to appear very committed to it because these people can react very nastily - and although they are partly responsible - I think that the main fault lies with you.

 

If you are able to pay £500 down and then monthly payments of £50 - I don't think that they could complain and I don't think that any court could fault you.

 

If you can get this underway, then if they case you problems, you will tend to have the upper hand and will be able to control events more easily

Link to post
Share on other sites

Same thing happened to us , we Brought a property that did have a key meter when we moved in and we asked our supplier to remove it which they did .

 

We totally forgot all about it after that , but 8 years after the meter was removed i received a Bill for just over 12k for the last 8 years Electric we used .

 

I rang that day to see what the hell was going on and again they demanded the 12k for the last 8 years , even sending me a final demand for the outstanding .

 

One last phone call and spoke to a Supervisor who told me the law states they can only charge me 24 months and not the full 8 years .

 

That still came to just under 2k and was given 2 years to pay back the money .

 

Sorted !

 

The back billing limit is 12 months, not 24 - http://www.consumerfocus.org.uk/files/2010/01/Back-billing-2012.pdf

 

 

How do they calculate a figure for this if there's no meter?

 

 

Looks like you have received responses from two people with actual experience - so ignore what I have said!!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I too am surprised there's no meter.

 

If you don't have a meter I cant see how you have a supplier, especially if you've never received letters. It's the supplier that you pay your bill to, so if you don't have a supplier I question who you own the money too.

 

Roughly how old is the property please?

 

At the fuse board in the property can you see 2 thick round cables (meter tails)? They are likely to be the only round cables and quite thick - can you see where they go?

Please don't remove any covers or make anything potentially unsafe in the process of looking :-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...