WRAG and the new proposals

[debt4get]

if you honestly believe that estellyn you are living in a dream world.....don' wish to insult anyone on this board, but this govt is determined to get 'rid of' people being dependent on benefits, whether you are ill or not....w2w are already asking for wrag 'slaves' to be put on their books as they get a lot more money for 'placing' them....if you think they are going to jeopordise their profit margins by going 'there there we will give you some nice work experience that doesnt tax you too much' then you are sadly in for a shock

[drop47]

I was thinking the same. When someone with mental health issues snaps and loses the plot and does something silly. I am using general words and when it gets to me i just have to take time out. I could not make a decision to save my life

[estellyn]

if you honestly believe that estellyn you are living in a dream world.....don' wish to insult anyone on this board, but this govt is determined to get 'rid of' people being dependent on benefits, whether you are ill or not....w2w are already asking for wrag 'slaves' to be put on their books as they get a lot more money for 'placing' them....if you think they are going to jeopordise their profit margins by going 'there there we will give you some nice work experience that doesnt tax you too much' then you are sadly in for a shock

 

I think you misunderstood what I said.

 

imagine someone with rheumatoid arthritis, they have scord 18 points - 6 for mobilising less than 200 metres, 6 for not reaching their hands above their heads, 6 for not being able to move an empty cardboard box. Now this person may well have intense pain, fatigue due to arthritis, side effects from medication and maybe should have scored more points - maybe even 15 points for not being able to mobilise 50 metres, which would have put them in the support group, however they are so happy to have 'passed' the assessment, they don't even think about appealling. then comes the first work programme appointment, and they find that they're expected to do work experience at a shop on a till, because their 'assessment' has decided that they they are capable of doing that.

 

No longer will we JUST have to worry about scoring enough points, we will also have to worry about fighting for every descriptor that we believe applies to us - because otherwise we'll be considered to be capable of it. people will be appealling their descriptors in WRAG with no hope of getting into support group - just so that they're not forced into a completely inappropriate 'work placement'.

 

Maybe I didn't explain myself well. Sorry.

[Dilizjo]

The government will probably just throw a few hundred million per year at a private insurance company to insure those on WRAG.

 

And that private Insurance company will most probably be UNUM, who are banned in some American states for bad practice but are used by this government in an advisory role regarding the WCA, they are also have been very closely linked to ATOS just google ATOS/UNUM, they have also been advertised on DC's website for private health insurance in the past, whether or not they still are I don't know.

[debt4get]

I think you misunderstood what I said.

 

imagine someone with rheumatoid arthritis, they have scord 18 points - 6 for mobilising less than 200 metres, 6 for not reaching their hands above their heads, 6 for not being able to move an empty cardboard box. Now this person may well have intense pain, fatigue due to arthritis, side effects from medication and maybe should have scored more points - maybe even 15 points for not being able to mobilise 50 metres, which would have put them in the support group, however they are so happy to have 'passed' the assessment, they don't even think about appealling. then comes the first work programme appointment, and they find that they're expected to do work experience at a shop on a till, because their 'assessment' has decided that they they are capable of doing that.

 

No longer will we JUST have to worry about scoring enough points, we will also have to worry about fighting for every descriptor that we believe applies to us - because otherwise we'll be considered to be capable of it. people will be appealling their descriptors in WRAG with no hope of getting into support group - just so that they're not forced into a completely inappropriate 'work placement'.

 

Maybe I didn't explain myself well. Sorry.

no i do get what you mean, however, if you have been put into the wrag group the govt strategy is that you MUST prepare for work, and this will include work placements, whether they are suitable for your condition or not....in an ideal world what you posted should happen, but i do not believe for one moment it will...i think what will happen is people will be forced onto totally unacceptable work placements, and remember if you 'fail' then the onus will be on you and your benefit will be sanctioned. as to appeals they are going to be scaled back, legal aid withdrawn, people will have no where to turn.. this is the most divisive, uncaring, right wing govt that in my opinion is not far off the nazi party...

[osdset]

I would say it will definitely be UNUM they have been instrumental in this stitch up from the start, their advertising is along the lines of 'you may not be able to rely on government sickness benefits in the future'. It's also in UNUM's best interest to discredit the validity of some debilitating long term conditions like Fibromyalgia and MS because of the huge cost implications if these conditions are covered.

 

UNUM were involved with designing the LIMA computer system that ATOS use, UNUM deny any links with ATOS, I don't buy that, stand back and look at the bigger picture and it all makes sense.

 

HM Gov. aim get rid of sickness benefits and pay ATOS £100 million per year to achieve the goal, UNUM waits quietly in the background for the public to grasp that state benefits aren't worth jack, and start paying into private schemes (and these sheeple still won't realise that they are paying out twice, becuase NI contributions won't decrease).

 

So we have the complete package, the government gets welfare reform with all the cash savings, ATOS, UNUM, and the WP pimps laugh all the way to the bank.

[speedfreek]

I for one welcome my new basket weaving overloads

[Dilizjo]

Indeed Odset and UNUM are imfamous for not paying out on claims that are made on their health policies so basically you are damned if you do and damned if you don't!!!!!

That should be the ConDems slogan... "Damned if you do and damned if you don't"

[estellyn]

no i do get what you mean, however, if you have been put into the wrag group the govt strategy is that you MUST prepare for work, and this will include work placements, whether they are suitable for your condition or not....in an ideal world what you posted should happen, but i do not believe for one moment it will...i think what will happen is people will be forced onto totally unacceptable work placements, and remember if you 'fail' then the onus will be on you and your benefit will be sanctioned. as to appeals they are going to be scaled back, legal aid withdrawn, people will have no where to turn.. this is the most divisive, uncaring, right wing govt that in my opinion is not far off the nazi party...

 

What I posted wasn't an ideal world, it was a nightmare. The DDA and the newer equality act mean that you can't be forced to do something the assessment says you are unable to, HOWEVER, the nightmare that I'm trying to get across is that the ATOS assessments will be used against claimants in a new way, to ensure that they can still be strong armed into 'work activity' under penalty of sanction. The new 'tactic' by ATOS assessors will be that if they have to pass someone as unfit to work, to do it with as few points as possible to make the person look as capable as possible while still 'unfit'. So people might find they only have physical issues looked at - and it gives them enough points for WRAG but mental health points are neglected, making a person seem far more capable than they actually are. I'm saying people WILL be put into inappropriate placements, and the difficulty is, when a person first gets put into WRAG they won't even think to appeal, unless they request a copy of their assessment, they won't even know what they've been scored on....and what they haven't. Then when they are told by the work programme adviser that the assessment finds them capable of doing x,y and z and that they have to comply or lose benefit, they won't have a clue what to do.

 

Will they be told their appeal rights? Will they even know what they should be appealing? Legal aid won't be available, there will be very few places to turn.

 

Certainly NOT an ideal world.

[down'n'out]

(and these sheeple still won't realise that they are paying out twice, becuase NI contributions won't decrease).

 

I am expecting to see NI contributions merged with Income Tax. Some explanation of how it makes things less complicated for employers etc, with increases to the " workplace pensions" contributions and the addition of "workplace sickness/unemployment packages" contributions.

 

We currently have the "Better to work than be on benefits" being pushed, next it will be "Better to plan for retirement than expect handouts"

[down'n'out]

Hi estellyn,

 

The new 'tactic' by ATOS assessors will be that if they have to pass someone as unfit to work, to do it with as few points as possible to make the person look as capable as possible while still 'unfit'.

 

The WCA was not designed to find anyone "Unfit" for work, it was/is designed to find that you are fit enough to do (at least) some kind of work.

[estellyn]

Hi estellyn,

 

 

 

The WCA was not designed to find anyone "Unfit" for work, it was/is designed to find that you are fit enough to do (at least) some kind of work.

 

Indeed, and will be used to great effect to find that most people will be capable of some work activity. Sick and disabled people to be used to increase profits of private companies. Nice.

 

Dance monkey dance.

Edited September 9, 2012 by estellyn

[osdset]

The government should be brought to book for attempted fraud, many of us have paid into this system for all their adult lives, I paid tax and NI for 38 years before I claimed ESA and I resent any accusation of accepting 'handouts' why should I work unpaid for up to 30 hours per week to get back some of a return on my NI investment? It's wrong.

 

If someone had a life insurance policy on a spouse and the company only paid out on bereavement under the proviso that the recipient worked every week for free there would be an outcry, the front pages of the tabloids would be red hot with the news, but this is what HM Gov are expecting us to put up with, would anyone seriously pay into an insurance scheme that only guaranteed unconditional returns for one year? Well that's what contribution based ESA is, after that it's means tested.

 

Those of us that contributed for many years have been conned out of our ENTITLEMENT for that's what it is, it's not a bloody handout, and the next person that mentions handout to me get's a smack in the mouth, that's how strongly I feel about it.

[debt4get]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19540318

funnily enough we were discussing the H&S implications of people working on wrag...and lo and behold this morning they are cutting inspections for health and safety and removing red tape...all in the interests of getting the economy moving ....yeah of course!!

[drop47]

Red tape and certain health and safety are truly a drain not just on the private sector but also on the public one. We are in a blame culture just watch the tv. There is no quick fix and most of us getting wound up about this have a vested interest i.e. We are on some kind of benefit. Sadly there are a lot of people and Doctors who abuse the system. Sadly as well if you have an obvious physical disability people support you,but make that a mental health issue and people are less concerned.

[debt4get]

of course some of us have a vested interest....a lot of us have paid into a system for decades in order to be protected later in life if things go wrong...if i had known my 'insurance policy' would have been altered after i had paid in for 40 years then i would have done something else about it!!!! moving the goalposts now is wrong wrong wrong

[speedfreek]

Aren't they bringing in that GP's can only sign people off for 4 weeks and then people have to be signed off by a DWP doc. I think they're piloting it at the moment.

 

No things have been relaxed so that the GP cert is now officially lessened in it stature. It always could be contested by a companies Occupational Health assessment now it's a bit more open to challenge and locums (who can cert feck all now well it always been quite a bit less what/how they could cert) and GPs are restricted in the use of open ended certs with out regular review.

 

So that not all bad tbf and at least regular reviews mean that (especially mentally ill folks) will have constant and regular engagement! If my experience with IAPT is anything to go by this a good thing as mental health patients tend to be lost and forgotten about all the time!

 

As for the use of an ATOS report/decision for anything other than a benefit decision..........

 

me likey likey long time.

 

Once it's used not for the purpose it was designed for it them become open to legal challenge via the DDA and Employment Act thingy!

 

Take the leap of faith here people! Once out of a benefit context it's a whole new and very dangerous ball game for all involved.

 

Used for a benefit decision we can only challenge it legally with in the benefit regulation/system it was designed for. Once Pandoras' box has been opened then it's party time! The DWP say we are treated as employees as are thus covered by employee/disability regulations. In multiple FOI requests have the DWP stated this fact. The DWP have also stated that the WP providers are to treat us as they do as employees. So.......

 

Use of a report designed for a specific benefit regulation frame work then applied to real life where it was not designed for nor intended to be used... speedy say GO Court Action GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[estellyn]

I like the way you think speedfreek.

[estellyn]

No things have been relaxed so that the GP cert is now officially lessened in it stature. It always could be contested by a companies Occupational Health assessment now it's a bit more open to challenge and locums (who can cert feck all now well it always been quite a bit less what/how they could cert) and GPs are restricted in the use of open ended certs with out regular review.

 

 

This is where I read about it:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/nov/19/sick-leave-independent-assessors-report

[speedfreek]

This is where I read about it:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/nov/19/sick-leave-independent-assessors-report

 

That was never going to happen nor is the Guardian gospel tbf!

 

http://www.pavilionmedicalcentre.co.uk/clinics-and-services.aspx for a practical summary. Click sickness certs on menu.

 

Actually you'd be better of googling the ~NHS or GP websites for the real guidance as it's neither here nor there tbf.

[estellyn]

That was never going to happen nor is the Guardian gospel tbf!

 

http://www.pavilionmedicalcentre.co.uk/clinics-and-services.aspx for a practical summary. Click sickness certs on menu.

 

Actually you'd be better of googling the ~NHS or GP websites for the real guidance as it's neither here nor there tbf.

 

You may be right, but my understanding was it was being trialled as part of the 'fit to work' programme in selected areas. But I could well be wrong - hope I am.

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/health-work-and-well-being/our-work/fit-for-work-services/

 

ETA: as an example http://www.leicesterfit4work.org.uk/_HEALTHCAREPROFESSIONALS.aspx

Edited September 10, 2012 by estellyn

[speedfreek]

That was actually a very successful scheme that was dropped for WP

 

The scheme itself was very good tbf as it tried to help those before things got to bad and neglected.

 

Multi agency and all well funded so.....

 

Councils still fund such thing but for mot too much longer

[count orlok]

So with reduced checks, am i right in thinking people on prescriptions drugs will now be able to operate machinery and people with heart conditions will now be able to drive trucks and busses?

 

The firms will no longer be liable, but if you refuse you'll get sanctioned and if you do it and cause an accidennt it will be your fault?

[vicky87]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19540318

funnily enough we were discussing the H&S implications of people working on wrag...and lo and behold this morning they are cutting inspections for health and safety and removing red tape...all in the interests of getting the economy moving ....yeah of course!!

 

Haha, seriously cant make this stuff up

[count orlok]

Just a question re work experience, who will be liable if I have a fatal heart attack this time and who will look after my widow who needs a carer (me at the moment)?