Housing Benefit Fraud Investigation

[thedeerhunter]

I'm in a world of worry and really do not know what to do.

 

I had been claiming benefits since 2003. I suffer from severe arthritis and had been in receipt of Incapacity Benefit, Housing and Council Tax Benefit up untill June 2011. I am still in receipt of DLA.

 

Last year, a friend of mine offered to train me in an administrative job in his Company which I started on 1st June 2011. I subsequently signed off my benefits and started paying my rent and council tax.

 

In April of 2011 I received a letter from the Council stating they had cause to believe that I had not advised them in a change in my circumstances and was under investigation. They have looked into my bank statements back to December 2006 and seen that more money has gone into my bank than I received in benefits. I explained the reason in writing to them.

 

I am a single father of 3. I have joint custody of my children but my ex-wife has always claimed their benefits. This meant that I was not entitled to claim any help for them. It was impossible for me to do my bit for them on the benefits I received. My sister paid for their mobile phones, Sky TV and anything else she could for them. She gave me the money for this which went into my account to pay direct debits.

 

Before my illness struck I was quite well off and built up various collections of memorabillia. I sold all these off over the past 5 or 6 years on Ebay or at car boot sales to raise money to support my kids. Paypal payments for these sales also went into my bank. I also sold things on my ebay account for friends. Not for profit, they paid the fees, thats it! These paypal payments also went through my bank account. I also had loans from friends and family, credit cards, etc. I am in serious debt.

I have explained to the Investigator that just because money has gone through my account it does not mean it's all mine! Also, I don't see how selling my belongings to put food on the table can be classed as income, I sold things out of necessity .

 

I was advised not to attend the interviews under caution due to my mental state.

 

I have received a benefit overpayment bill of £17000:00 for the past 5 years and also an intimidating letter from the investigator saying he is pushing for a criminal prosecution.

 

The stress from all the worry is affecting my illness which in turn is affecting my ability to work. I don't want to have to give up work and end up back on benefits. I don't know where to turn. I'm in the depths of depression and I know I couldn't cope with a court case.

 

I need to know if loans, sale of belongings or financial help from friends and family can be classed as income? Any advice would be much appreciated.

[sadone]

I'm so sorry to hear this. So were the only means tested benefits you were on Housing and council tax benefit?

 

Maybe looking into your bank accounts they're trying to pin you as trading back then. Yes you know It's all your own stuff, but maybe they're choosing to ignore that.

 

Also I suspect any income seen going into your bank accounts regularly would end up effecting any means tested benefits.

 

May I ask what kind of amounts are we talking about here?

Edited June 16, 2012 by sadone

[thedeerhunter]

Hi there, I was also claiming Incapacity Benefit for those periods. I have heard nothing from the DWP or HMCR regarding it. I suppose, including with my incapacity benefit and DLA there was average £1400 per month going through. £150 of this was from my sister for the kids. Also paypal for friends at times. In their calculations they have not taken into account that my benefits were part of this ammount. Their figures are badly flawed.

[sadone]

Was it contributions based IB or Income based?

 

I think that they will be concerned about that amount regularly going in I'm afraid. Fine for all none means tested benefits, but a problem for any income based, particularly as It's seen to be a large regular amount.

 

I for example have been on CB based IB for a few years and also sold off my old business assets and memorabilia to pay my rent, but I wasn't claiming any means tested benefits during that entire time.

Edited June 16, 2012 by sadone

[thedeerhunter]

It was contributions based. Thanks.

[sadone]

Well by the looks of it the only issue here is going to be with housing etc. Are you sure It's not a good idea to attend the IUC, but with a solicitor?

[thedeerhunter]

Thanks for your help.

I'm afraid it's gone past that stage now. I've not heard anything for around 6 weeks now, just waiting for the bomb to drop. Guess I will have to hope that the Court will look sympathetically at the case. I have very little now, my main priority was to give my kids what they needed.

[sadone]

I really do think you need legal advice. You should check and see If you're entitled to free legal aid. Not trying to scare you, but most councils these days go to town on what they perceive to be fraud cases, so you'll need all the help you can muster.

[sadone]

Just to add have you done a proper breakdown of what the money going in amounted to? I think you need to do that asap really. Get accurate figures together so you can offer them up when the council start throwing theirs about.

[kk3852]

I can see how they have reached the decision that your benefit has been overpaid.

 

They can see from your bank statements that you have income from other sources - they will have information from PayPal and Ebay that you have been trading on there and when asked to attend for an interview you declined to do so. No-one can force you to do and you have your reasons for not going.

 

However, in the absence of any other explanation they have treated all the money coming in to your accounts as income from either ebay trading or from an undeclared source. They are not to know that this is supposed to be money from your family to help you to pay off debts.

 

If the amount of the overpayment is £17,000 then your case will be referred to solicitors to explore whether there is sufficient evidence to prosecute. I doubt very much whether it is a threatening letter from the investigator as they tend to be standard letters which are sent out just to inform you what might happen next.

[Stan Lee]

You need to appeal the overpayment. Make an appointment with your local welfare rights (or failing that CAB) and attend with all your paperwork. It's their job to know the ins and outs of what counts as income/what is classed as capital. Because of the length of time these things take (appeals) I would get on that pronto.

 

You want to do a forensic analysis of the time in question, and nail down what each and every payment is going in to your account, and your outgoings. If you have sold things for friends, ask them to confirm this in writing for you. This will make the Welfare Rights Adviser's job a bit easier (in the sense that they have an explanation for your bank statements).

 

I'm not an expert, but I believe that private loans (that aren't career development loans) can count as capital, and are subject to the same capital rules. So, if you have more than 6k sitting in your account then this will affect your benefit.

 

Once the WR adviser has a full picture, he or she may be able to liaise with the fraud investigations officer, although if this is already in the hands of the prosecutor, then perhaps the latter.

 

Secondly, you should still consult a solicitor, experienced in welfare law (use YELL and e-mail all the solicitors in your area asking if they have specific experience in this area). Even if you cant afford one, it might be useful to go in for an initial consultation.

 

A solicitor might be able to try an intercession, although in your case, you might also be needing the solicitor to explain your situation to the court. You certainly need legal advice at this stage, though.

[thedeerhunter]

Thanks for the reply. As I did not attend an interview I did send them a detailed letter as to my situation and all the ins and outs. I am not a dishonest person, I have been upfront with them in this letter. I also explained as to why I would not attend the interview.

As for the letter, it was very threatening. Trying to bully me into an interview and demanding I contact him. So much so, a friend commented that it seemed he was desperate to gather more evidence from me.

[thedeerhunter]

Thanks Stan, I've still not heard if it's going to Court as yet. I'm working as self employed at present for very little money. There are not enough hours in the day as it is, time to sort things is a problem. If I take time off we don't eat, it's that simple. I really don't have anyone to physically help me.

I have never had any money in my account apart from day to day living funds. Any loans were used for necessities.

[Stan Lee]

Unfortunately, the wheels of the machine turn very very slowly. Your overpayment (on the surface) seems to big enough that the LA/DWP prosecutor/CPS will take a very hard look at the evidence before them. It could be weeks or months before a court date pops through the door.

 

I have heard of prosecutors not pushing forward with cases that 'aren't in the public interest'; one potential way to convince them off that is to see if WRs or (more likely) a solicitor can lobby on your behalf.

 

I appreciate that things are very hard for you but I would urge you to see (at least) the Welfare Rights/CAB to get the ball rolling on challenging the overpayment.

 

There is a lot of pressure just now on investigators to hit targets. I'm not saying that they are all corrupt -- I'm sure they have a difficult job themselves-- but from my own anecdotal experience on here there are a lot of vulnerable people who end up getting chewed up because they've made mistakes, and then once these mistakes come to light, don't have the resources or wherewithal to fight it.

 

You can help yourself by speaking to an expert in your area; do try and speak to your local WRs.

[daipp]

I can see how they have reached the decision that your benefit has been overpaid.

 

They can see from your bank statements that you have income from other sources - they will have information from PayPal and Ebay that you have been trading on there and when asked to attend for an interview you declined to do so. No-one can force you to do and you have your reasons for not going.

 

Actually, the DWP can get the Police to arrest you in order to interview you and then the Police are usually involved in the process.

[thedeerhunter]

Thanks for that! The DWP have nothing to do with it.

[daipp]

Thanks for that! The DWP have nothing to do with it.

Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit are DWP benefits administered by local authorities on behalf of DWP. Local Authority Benefit Fraud investigators use the same powers and legislation as DWP investigators. None of this may be what you want to hear but I'm telling you as it is.

Additionally, LA investigators will approach the DWP with details of the allegation and ask DWP if any other offences have been committed.

[Stan Lee]

Actually, the DWP can get the Police to arrest you in order to interview you and then the Police are usually involved in the process.

 

My understanding is that this is rare: the original poster did write to them explaining why he would not be attending the interview, and tried to provide some explanation of his financial transactions. It is not as if this was a case of 'radio silence'.

[thedeerhunter]

Thanks for your help and understanding Stan! I have taken your constructive advice on board.

[MIKEY DABODEE]

It may effect the IB, if the OP has been trading on Ebay it may be classed as self employment, it could be ref to a Decision Maker to see if this would have been accepted as permitted work, if it is accepted then no problem and it would be subject to the permiited work rules.

If not there could be a problem.

 

DLA it has no effect