Marston trouble again! Need letter help, apparantly I forgot to cross my T's!

[viking657]

Hello,

 

got alot of help regarding an old business debt from this forum well over 18 months ago. Finally saw the evidence that Incasso had showing a credit agreement of sorts had been signed, even though the whole thing was border line on legal I was happy to enter an agreement to repay at my own rate which I could afford as I finally, after much hassle, was statisfied I owed the money.

 

Basically I saw off Marstons last time (went to court I didn't even know debt existed) and it was refered back to Incasso and after I spelled out my position Incasso accepted a weekly repayment on standing order.

 

Circumstances change, 12 months ish ago I reduced the weekly payment and let them know with reasons why. I hear nothing and suddenly a years worth of payments later Marston are at my door again!

 

So I sent Marston a letter outlining my position and what would happen if a bailiff attended my home again. Including such things as stating I would not let them in, would not sign an order, I have no assets or goods to cover this debt etc etc. Basically telling them to send it back to Incasso.

 

Recieved a letter today stating they would be attending with removal contractors on the 29th, I rang them and spoke to quite a nice guy really. He listerned to my position on the matter and basically said when I stated he'd be breaking the law if they came back that my letter wasn't a legal document, wait before you scream, because I hadn't worded it correctly.

I said so you need another letter, he said yes you can find places to help you with that.

He asked for the history because it had been with them before and said maybe having the court look at my financies was the best option for me, but all he could do was take an offer and see if it was accepted.

Personally I believe they don't want to waste the petrol because they already know I won't let them in or budge on this issue, which is why he was so helpful and polite. Yikes!

 

So can someone please help me with this letter, I seem to remember using a template but I can't find it now, with regards to getting the debt refered back to the claimant?

 

Regards and thanks in advance

[viking657]

I've had a read through some of my old posts, didn't know I could do that before I posted, they aren't all there but I've got a horrible feeling the reason it was refered back was because I was applying for set aside in my defence of this debt.

 

The paper work and rules governing the application of credit to a business are terrible and basically I decided to enter an agreement before set aside because they was far too much of my word against theirs and not enough hard evidence to prove foul play in the applying of credit, even though I know they were wrong - another story really.

 

Anyhow still need help getting it refered back I know Marston's can do nothing unless I let them but what do I need to say via letter to make that clear and make any further action be clear harassment and imidiation?

[wonkeydonkey]

I would strongly suggest you contact the creditor and ask if they have received notice of your offer and if so did they agree it or refuse it? I suspect they will not have been given any sight of your offer. It is possible (if my suspicions are confirmed) when you point out to them their apponted bailiff has acted contrary to guidelines, they will agree a payment plan with you.

 

If this fails, I sggest you make an application for a variation order through the Court but try the 1st suggestion and then come back and caggers will guide you through the form for variation. Meanwhile I would be tempted to see how much of the balance to this account is the debt and how much is actually being claimed as fee's by adapting and sending the template below to Marstons?

 

"From:

My Name

My Address

 

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

This is not a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

I require this information within 14 days

 

 

Yours faithfully

Ripped off customer"

 

Trust me when I tell ou they do not have toeven send a bailiff before they start adding their fees.

 

WD

[viking657]

thanks wonkeydonkey I'm feeling more in control already.

 

I'll be ringing Incasso first thing and hopefully getting to the bottom of this and ironing out a new repayment plan when I point out their error.

I never recieved any response to my letter regarding a reduction in payments and after a bit of calculating I've worked out that I've been paying them at the revised weekly rate for well over 14 months, does the fact its taken them this long to take any action/exception to my reduced payment plan work in my favour?

 

Tommorrow will bring what it brings but, thinking ahead, if I do run into problems ie Incasso claiming not to be in reciept of this letter would a subject access request cover copies of my letters to them? I do have proof of postage for all my letters I sent to Marstons, Incasso and the claimant.

[wonkeydonkey]

thanks wonkeydonkey I'm feeling more in control already.

 

I'll be ringing Incasso first thing and hopefully getting to the bottom of this and ironing out a new repayment plan when I point out their error. Why pay Marstons when you can possibly negotiate with the creditor?

I never recieved any response to my letter regarding a reduction in payments and after a bit of calculating I've worked out that I've been paying them at the revised weekly rate for well over 14 months, does the fact its taken them this long to take any action/exception to my reduced payment plan work in my favour? Yes it does but needs to be handled carefully, you have the advantage here and need to keep it that way, so start with a letter to the Claimant pointing out the facts.

Tommorrow will bring what it brings but, thinking ahead, if I do run into problems ie Incasso claiming not to be in reciept of this letter would a subject access request cover copies of my letters to them? I do have proof of postage for all my letters I sent to Marstons, Incasso and the claimant.

You can indeed send SAR but remember they have 40 days to make a reply to it.

[viking657]

thanks for your swift response you are a star!

 

I won't be paying Marstons anything. The short version of events is claimant hired Incasso, who obtained judgement by default, who set marstons on me, I got rid of marstons and made a repayment plan with Incasso directly. Now Incasso have set marstons on me again as you know, hopefully with your advice I can sort this out with Incasso directly.

Marstons can go through the motions of enforcement all they like at some point they will have to return this to Incasso, which is basically what I'm aiming for, hopefully your advice will help me get the wolves called off a bit quicker.

 

I have a lot to think about I'll update tommorrow - Thanks again

[wonkeydonkey]

claimant hired Incasso, can you tell me who is the original claimant and what is the debt for? if you do not want to do this on forum then please send PM and I can assess where to go so others may benifit without compromising you.

 

WD

[viking657]

Hello wonkeydonkey,

 

The original claimant is Games Workshop Limited, the debt is a business debt. They supply products which I sold in my shop until a fire in premises next to mine pretty much put the nail in my business.

I did attempt to restart the business briefly but struggled to restart it due to host of other knock on effects thanks to the interruption in trading, at the time I ceased trading I thought the account was up to date and settled, despite them knowing of my circumstances and knowing my home address it took them 12 months to notifiy me to a problem and shortly after I moved papers were served at my previous address - so judgement by default.

The credit agreement is a rather shaky one in my opinon, for a start I had no credit account with them and opened a pro forma account by supplying my details via their rep.

As my business took off I was offered a buy now pay later xmas deal for stock, never explained as a credit account just an order which would be due for payment 3 months later.

It was after the fact when I placed a normal order, which normally wouldn't be released until payment recieved, that I discovered I had been given a credit account, with them stating otherwise the xmas order wouldn't have been able to be processed.

 

The whole case against me is based on this form, which I filled out many months prior when opening a pro forma account. They state that this is a credit agreement and attached the terms and conditions when I requested it when the trouble started, however I never filled this form in wanting a credit account it was for pro forma and terms and conditions were never shown or origianally attached.

Why would the rep go through it? I was applying for pro forma not credit.

 

The fire destroyed most of my records so I didn't really know were I was up at the time, clearly a debt is owed but I do resent the fact they can hound and chase me like this and bring the full weight of the law against me despite the fact, I can see and possibily show, that their credit appilication practices were shocking at the time and in my mind they share some of the responsibility for the creation of this debt.

[ploddertom]

We may be missing something important here. If you have a CCJ against you then Marstons may only be collecting as HCEO's as Judgment will have been transferred up for enforcement. If no CCJ in place then they are merely Debt Collectors and may be told to Foxtrot Oscar.

 

PT

[wonkeydonkey]

Have you ever have sight of the Judgment?

Did you trade as sole trader/partnership/Ltd?

[viking657]

Hello thanks for responses guys.

 

The original action dates back to August 2009, there is a judgement by default CCJ, I've seen it via my credit file and confirmed through the courts back at the time.

 

I was a sole trader.

 

My understanding is Incasso have simply had the writ issued again for enforcement.

 

fortunately I can update, I spoke to Incasso as Wonkeydonkey suggested today and they have no record of any offer of a change to my repayment plan, it was nice to have them on the back foot but I wasn't horrible. I pointed out as I can confirm posting and the revised payment plan has been in effect for over 14 months then they are in breach of guidelines by neither refusing or accepting the reduced payment plan and cannot simply jump to enforcement action via Marstons. I also pointed out due to the fact the new repayments have been active for so long it certainly doesn't strengthen their case for enforcement.

After basically saying its clear you/or claimant is not happy with current repayments what can we do about it, I briefly explained my circumstances and tabled a new slightly higher offer which they are going to put to the claimant.

 

Its all going in writing today along with a subject access request to Incasso to get to the bottom of this.

 

I've also rang marstons explained the situation and what I'm going to do, they were happy with what I was saying and I also stated they would have it in writing tommorrow along with a request for a breakdown of any charges. I told them not to waste their petrol as the fault was with Incasso not marstons, for what can only be described as a wild goose chase for them. I have always found marstons quite reasonable with me overall on the phone, I must come across as if I am 100% confident in what I'm saying!

 

I'm going to review what Incasso send me and look at this debt all over again and see if I can do anything else.

[ploddertom]

Beware the smiling assassin.

[ploddertom]

There is something not quite right with all of this. If the Games Workshop took you to Court & obtained the CCJ by fair means or foul they then cannot just pass it on for a DCA to act on. Has it been back to Court for Incasso to takeover? Incasso would not have the right to transfer it up for enforcement. I see you intend to SAR Incasso I think you should also do the same with Games Workshop.

 

What sort of Judgment do you have - is it Forthwith or were payments set by the Court?

 

PT

[viking657]

Ploddertom

 

I seem to remember you pointing me in the right directions originally when I came to this forum 2 years ago, if your spidey sense is tingling over this then thats good enough for me.

 

The answer to most of what you ask is I don't know. I have only had confirmation of the CCJ via my credit file and speaking to the courts at the time marstons first knocked on my door in nov 09.

I remember it saying that it was Gamesworkshop vs me but when I was researching all this Incasso were already involved the CCJ is from August 09.

As far as I know this is the only entry on my credit file apart from a single credit search by Gamesworkshop on Aug 08 about 4 months after i ceased trading.

 

With regards to it going back to court for Incasso to take over I really don't know it needs looking into further.

 

The first time I was contacted by marstons I was obvioulsy not impressed, this was the first communication over the matter. Previous letters must have been sent to the last known trading address, even though they had my home address, I know the papers were served at my previous home address about 2 months after I moved.

All letters from Incasso and intial action by marstons I believe were directed at that home address.

 

Believing no debt to exist and no record or memory of a credit agreement (IMHO its not I opened a pro forma but clearly a debt is owed) I naturally wanted to get to the bottom of it and thanks to this forum was able to take action.

 

I saw off Marstons by putting the account into dispute, requesting various break down of charges from them and also providing the evidence that I was preparing to apply for set aside.

I contacted Incasso and also sent them a request to see the paper work relating to a credit agreement, they were not very forthcoming at first so I sent the same request to Gamesworkshop directly for the credit agreement, also outlining with evidence how I had never agreed to a credit account and had opened a pro forma account. Also showing the evidence to prove they had simply upgraded my account to a credit one and whilst I was open to the fact that a debt was owed I wasn't impressed with their handling of this matter.

 

Incasso wrote back within days and the content of their letter clearly showed they were not at all pleased I had contacted Gamesworkshop directly, they almost told me off! Considering how slow they were to response and deal with my enquires prior to this it was a bit of a shock to suddenly have them talking.

 

I managed to get a copy of the credit agreement with terms on a different sheet, it was the form that I filled in via the rep for a pro forma account, under my signiture was a simple statement saying they reserve the right to perform a credit search.

I remembered questioning this at the time and the rep stating ignore that you be opening a pro forma account you can only apply for credit later once the account is up and running, which at the time I didn't want. So no terms and conditions and I was happy with that. So for many orders after that I simply placed the orders and paid in full before it was released.

 

Incasso stated thats a credit agreement and after much haggling I agreed to a repayment plan that suited me and its been that way ever since, I halted my application for set aside and that was that.

 

The form I filled in was at the back of trade account application pack which basically showcased their products, their were no terms and conditions and the form part simply detached, very simple name address VAT number etc.

 

I believe something is owed but I honestly admitted defeat at that point as although I can prove they mishandled my account theres still alot of my word against theirs.

My aim was never to get out of paying what I owe, just establish that they share the blame and I'll be repaying at a rate I can afford and not selling my first born into slavery to clear it!

 

thats the short version, I am sending a SAR to Gamesworkshop today as well. I am requesting basically everything, its time to get to the bottom of all this.

[ploddertom]

Be interested to see what you get back. Did Games Workshop gain the CCJ against you or was it Incasso? If Marstons become a problem they can be stopped in their tracks by applying for a Stay which I think would be granted.

 

PT

[viking657]

So far it appears it was Gamesworkshop but my SAR's to both Gamesworkshop and Incasso are very detailed but clealry stated within not limited to:wink: the points of information I have requested.

I should get copies of all the legal paperwork and court papers, in fact I should get every scrap of detail they hold, I've requested a lot of information from gamesworkshop from across the lifetime of my account with them it could take a while.

 

Applying for a stay is the ace in up my sleave I agree, trustworthy I think not, but I don't have any reason to believe marstons will be taking this any further at this time.

Hopefully I've covered all possibilites with my letters and made returning this to Incasso the only option for them, like I said earlier in the thread after both conversations with Marstons, added to the fact this account has been with them before so they have records, it was almost like they were leading me to what I needed to do on the phone so they didn't waste money pursuing me.

They may well be the **** of the earth but even they require a letter to hold up to the people who hired them to show they have done all they can, they got no where last time no reason for them to believe this time would be any different.

 

I'll update as I get responses, thanks for your help so far.

 

Forgot to add and need to check this via the SAR's and the break down of fees if any from marstons that it would appear that NO CHARGES were added to the amount outstanding by marstons this time round and if they did it was very very little. Considering they slapped on over £2000 last time round I found that most puzzling....

Edited February 23, 2012 by viking657

[ploddertom]

They have 40 days maximum as this is a legal requirement. When paying the £10 fee make sure you include words to the effect of " the £10 payment is solely for the SAR and must not be used for any other purpose". Make sure it is sent at least by Royal Mail Signed For and use Track & Trace to see when & who signed for it, I appreciate it costs a little more but would send payment by crossed PO as this is as good as sending cash.

 

PT

[viking657]

little update to the previous post, just got off the phone to Gamesworkshop. They have confirmed that they indeed own this debt and do not sell debts. Incasso are acting on their behalf.

I informed them of the pending SAR and the reason being I want all the information once and for all so I can move forward on this issue.

Also put the following question to them with regards to if they would be prepared to deal with me directly.

To my surprise they were very open to the idea, I informed them of several issues including the current one on dealing with Incasso after they asked what the problem was and they have stated that the person who deals with this account is back in tommorrow and it would be put to them but in theory there is not reason why this can't happen.

I'd still be liable for the fees they inccurred in instructing Incasso, which I of course agreed but as I pointed out they still have the CCJ and its a simple matter of sending it back if the arrangement didn't work.

They also confirmed reciept of payments from Incasso but could not state how much or how much was still outstanding without going away and calculating it.

 

All in all I think this is the best result so far, if their are any fees on the amount outstanding that are not Gamesworkshops personal costs then I can pretty much in theory write them off what I owe if I deal direct.

 

I'm off to type my offer!

 

thanks for the above post ploddertom, PO's are my prefered form I will add in about what this payment is intended for though and its going recorded cheers

[wonkeydonkey]

Please remember to mark any letter with any offer you make without predjudice then you have indeed remembered to cross all the T's this time:wink:

Edited February 23, 2012 by wonkeydonkey

[viking657]

Thanks ploddertom, I can't really believe all I've had to learn since I've joined this forum just so I can get companies to take note and listern, often the reasons they don't take note is because you forgot to cross your T's - I really hate that!

 

Small update and a question

 

I just spoke to Marstons though my letter has yet to be fully processed they have confirmed the account is on hold and have confirmed, based on what I said ( I spoke to the same guy) yesterday, that the account will more than likely be refered back to Incasso for further instructions.

So plenty of time for all the other letters to arrive and action to be taken.

 

With regards to the fees Incasso may have applied which will be revealed by the SAR's, clearly I will need to pay the fees gamesworkshop inccured in instructing Incasso if I get it pulled back to them but in your honest opinon and experience do you or anyone else think those fees will have already been paid by gamesworkshop or simply added on by Incasso for collection?

 

I'm concerned and thinking ahead as to how I will separate what is owed to Incasso if gamesworkshop pull it back and I deal direct.

[ploddertom]

What you really need to know is who obtained the CCJ against you. Is it that it was passed to Incasso initially and they issued proceedings on behalf of Games Workshop or did they do it themselves before passing it on.

 

PT

[viking657]

I have an update and need advice but keep losing connection I'm in the process of editing this post please hang on before replying.

 

Ok so yesterday I recieved a text from Marstons saying and officer was due to attend shortly please ring them urgently.

I rang them today and explained the situation again, reminding them this account was still under dispute. They said they had recieved my letter and the breakdown was being processed and they had new instructions to collect a revised weekly repayment, is this acceptable and will I be making that payment?

I said I will call you back today, to make the payment?, no Mr Marston man to let you know what I'll be doing about this which may or may not include a payment.

 

Rang Incasso, they confirmed reciept of the SAR and they were processing for a response. Last week I pointed out that clearly someone wasn't happy with the repayment rate (see earlier posts) so what can we do about this, I suggested a provisional repayment they said they would get back to me.

They claim to have rang me monday, could not get hold of me so passed it back on tuesday to Marstons to collect the new repayment after speaking to the claimant (maybe)

Incasso want me to deal with Marstons I told them whislt I'm prepared in princple to amend my current repayment by standing order to Incasso prior to a review of my account when the SAR's come back, I'm not prepared to deal with Marstons.

Considering my circumstances will change come April and due to the poor communication so far I said of course if we confirm this all in writing then in principle I'm happy to provesionally agree to this as a way forward but I still nee to review the account.

I also reminded them that whilst I'm not considering legal action currently as I just want this sorted out, that this matter should not be with Marstons anyway as they haven't followed due process.

Incasso guy said I need to speak to the lady who deals with this account and see if it can be withdrawn from Marstons, I'll ring you back. I'll be ringing them, though I did provide my mobile number, again.

I also managed to wring the amount out of him that I owe to Incasso directly £7721, so nealry a £1000 of charges as Marston want £8708 - seems my earlier maths was wrong!

 

I also contacted Gamesworkshop, could not speak to the lady I previously dealt with as she was in a meeting but they confirmed reciept of my SAR and the letter concerning my very attractive propsal to bring the debt back to them directly and cut out all these middle man. Something I've never been able to do so far as first point of contact and knowledge of this debt was Nov 2009 via marstons.

They will let me know in due course.

 

Clearly the proposal to games workshop will take time, am I damaging my chances of that by agreeing to a new repayment plan with Incasso in the meantime?

Clearly Marstons charges are way off considering all I have is a text and two letters so I'd be silly to pay anything to them but were to go from here?

 

thoughts anyone I said I'd ring Marstons before close of business

 

Clearly Incasso have no idea at this stage that I'm trying to get this withdrawn from them but are trying to give marstons their slice of the pie., I'm thinking its time to dig my heels in and bunker down and wait for all the responses to come back in the hope gamesworkshop contact me before then.

 

ok post finished

Edited February 29, 2012 by viking657

[viking657]

Hi another update

 

please read the previous post as well if you have any advice or thoughts.

 

I took some trusted advice over the issue with Marstons today and after expressing my feeling again to Incasso and them now working on withdrawing the writ and setting up the agreed repayment plan I have made a payment to Marston's god help me!

 

I have paid them the weekly amount as they have now been instructed to collect thanks to my handling of this matter so not much really. I can only hope this does not cause any issues with regards to getting this withdrawn, but it has stopped any further enforcement.

So I have their account details and will set up a standing order, this was all done over the phone so I haven't signed anything or allowed them in for tea and biscuits.

 

Advice on this one please as now I'm paying them and Incasso?!?!?

 

Just to add it seems in my haste to be proactive whilst I may have got the amount that Marstons could accept reduced to a very small weekly sum I inadvertly speeded up the process of this proposed repayment plan.

Hence Marstons recieving new instructions, meant they had the green light to carry on chasing as of yesterday.

I'm keen to know what my options are if Incasso or Gamesworkshop don't pull the plug on Marstons involvement, I know I could apply for a stay and I also know as I have signed nothing or allowed them in I could in theory just stop paying them at some point in the future, them come round, me send them packing and force them to return it to Incasso.

 

I'm putting a letter out with regards to what I've discussed with Incasso today and I'm also going to put out a letter to Games Workshop advising them that as it currently stands potentially £1000 has been added to this debt and hence an increased time period for repayment.

Edited February 29, 2012 by viking657
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