Announcement: ESA claimants now have the option of having their WCA recorded

[Simon7685]

For what it is worth, I completely understand how people feel like giving up, I have been there myself. The thing with this whole situation is this is the ideal answer for the DWP, they want people to give up. They know that if 100 people apply and are refused a benefit, only 60 of those are likely to appeal all the way to tribunal. Out of those 60 around 40 are likely to succeed. the end result is a 60% saving for the DWP on the prescribed benefit.

 

What people have to do is find the strength and resolve to continue to fight the system. Do we actually know of anyone that has had their assessment recorded outside of the initial pilot. If just one person has had a recorded assessment carried out, then there is a precedent that having your assessment recorded is acceptable. I will refuse to have any assessment without recording carried out based on that. In addition the fact of the recommendations from the Harrington report, plus the statements made by the secretary of state, all state it is fair and resonable for the claimant to have their assessment recorded.

 

The likely result will be DWP placing a sanction on me for failing to attend a WCA. However if every stage is carried out in writing with proof of delivery, then I (or anyone else) must have a strong case. I will personally seek legal representation, after all there is a legal aid system to fall back on and it needs to be used. Then there is the power of the press, newspapers, TV, etc, we have to try and make use of it all.

 

Yes DWP have the upper hand to a degree as they hold the power to pay you or not. Yes it could lead to a very difficult situation where they stop my money, how would I survive, I do not know and don't have the answer to that. However it is something that has to be done, I believe people will get some support if they can follow this through. I for one would have no problem selling my story to the press if necessary, it's not nice but ends must.

 

At the end of the day, all anyone is asking is for a fair system, we live in a world where modern technology is at the forefront, CCTV is used everywhere. Phone calls are recorded by the DWP and others, we are filmed everywhere we go in society, so it is not unreasonable to have any assessment recorded. I honestly believe that the only way to get this system changed is for each and everyone of us to fight until the bitter end and if needed take the fight to the DWP.

 

Giving in as soon they apply any pressure is not the answer. Just because ATOS decide they aren't going to give us a recorded assessment doe not mean we have to run with their decision. Someone somewhere has to have the resolve to say no, put each and every stage in writing and see it through. I am quite prepared to do it, I have already set the wheels in motion by refusing to go ahead with my WCA that was booked for yesterday. WE ALL SING FROM THE SAME HYMN SHEET.

 

Worried33.......

Put it in writing to ATOS and the DWP that you will not attend any WCA that is booked for you unless it is recorded. If they get back in touch and say you have to attend or face your money being stopped, tell them you have been seeking legal advice and you require what they are telling you in writing, together with legal reasons why you should be subjected to an unrecorded assessment, when it has been clearly stated that there is a right to it. When they say there is no right, ask them to quantify that in writing as it contradicts the Secretary of State and the recommendations of the report.

 

Someone somewhere has to be the first to stand up and be counted. As I have said I am prepared to do it but other people are liable to have the opportunity to stand up before they come back to me.

[osdset]

Yes I wholeheartedly agree with you, but unfortunately there is a certain amount of abuse of the appeal system.

 

The official figures for those fraudulently claiming benefits is 0.5%, the governments stand on this is a massive sledgehammer to crack a tiny nut, it's frankly ridiculous and completely out of proportion to the problem. The current WCA is an inconvenience for the determined fraudster, but is hugely effective in discriminating against genuine claimants.

[worried33]

I already sent a letter to ATOS today, since I only have 2 weeks to the medical I had little time to do it, it did quote the minister's declaration but I wish I put it in the words you said now, although I can do that to the DWP although I fully expect the DWP to just refer me to ATOS and claim they powerless even tho ATOS is employed by the DWP.

 

Where would I send the DWP letter to?

 

As far as my MP goes last time they contacted the DWP it took over a month to get a reply because she contacted the regional manager instead of the ESA dapartment so extra delays. So if I stand my ground on this I am looking at a fit for work in which I dont get paid during an appeal.

[speedfreek]

Could be that they're expecting their staff to strike

 

http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/lfi/DNWA-8W2DZU

 

An Olympics sponsor at the centre of the government's controversial cuts to disability benefits faces industrial action during the Games by PCS members trying to improve poverty pay levels.

 

Multi-million pound company Atos has faced heavy criticism for its handling of 'back to work' tests on behalf of the Department for Work and Pensions, which disabled people and campaigners say are solely designed to cut the welfare bill.

 

The union will this week begin balloting more than 1,500 of its members across Atos Healthcare and Atos IT Services after they voted by 95% and 89% respectively to reject below-inflation pay offers.

 

This could mean workers from sites across the UK taking strike action during the Olympic Games, which lists Atos as a 'worldwide partner'

[speedfreek]

Somebody in here looking for * cough * written documented evidence on recordings from the DWP? * cough *

 

May I hereby suggest page 135 here http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-handbook.pdf

 

4.1.3 Audio and video taping of examinations

Audio Recording

The DWP never requires that a medical assessment for advising on entitlement to state sickness or disability benefits be recorded.

A claimant may request that their assessment is audio recorded. Dual CD recording machines are available to provide audio recordings. For any requests made by claimants for their assessment to be audio recorded, the resource team at the MSC will be responsible for arranging for the audio recording equipment to be sent to the appropriate MEC for the assessment. At the present time, Audio recording of assessments can only take place at a MEC. Further information can be obtained from your local MSC.

 

Who is your daddy and what does he do?

[Simon7685]

Worried33..........

 

Can you tell us what exactly you put in your letter to ATOS?

If it is too much to type in or you would prefer not to, that's fine but if you can I will try to give you some pointers for what to send to the DWP. You need to send that letter to the ESA Decision Maker at the office dealing with your claim. If you want to do this, then I for one will help you with letter writing if I can. It is in everyones interests to help and support each other where we can.

[Simon7685]

Worried33........

 

Would you mind publishing the letter you sent to ATOS on here? If not can you scan/cut & paste or type it in, if so I am quite happy to help you word a letter to the DWP, I am no expert by any means but if it helps you and you want the help the offer is there. If you want you could PM me a copy or email it, though it might be useful to others if we can all put stuff on here to help each other. I have medical appointments tomorrow morning and won't be in until afternoon, so I could get something together for you by tomorrow night to send off on Saturday recorded delivery if you want.

[Simon7685]

How annoying.........

 

Post 381 didn't show up and I found myself wondering if I had pressed the post button........

I wasn't sure so re wrote it and posted it and the first one mgically appeared, think maybe I have been eating some of those buns mentioned earlier today:madgrin:

[nolegion]

*STAR POST* ....#380.... by speedfreek above

 

Revised "WCA Handbook" . Supposed issue date 5th July 2012. Including revised "recording rules" at 4.1.3 clearly stating an entitlement to a recording and to be told how the process will work.

 

Now that is truly encouraging.

Edited July 12, 2012 by nolegion

[**Margaret**]

To: worried33

 

 

Almost certain your benefit delivery centre will be Padge Road. Check the address on anything you've been sent from Jobcentreplus about your entitlement to benefit, changes in rates of benefit etcetera.

 

 

Only you can decide whether to risk a sanction for failure to attend. I'm still standing at the moment but my plan B is notes. Have to remember that there's no legislative right to audio record this persecution.

 

 

Best wishes, Margaret.

[Simon7685]

Yes it is, now we just all have to help each other to take the best advantage of the situation and fight ATOS and the DWP.

[Simon7685]

There is also no legislative right for them to refuse to facilitate a recording requested by a claimant.

 

If we all say no I am sure we can fight this and avoid sanctions for not attending. If you ask for a recorded WCA and they just refuse without legislative process, then we are not refusing to attend a WCA. We are refusing to attend a non recorded WCA.

It won't be easy but I think we can win in the end.

[**Margaret**]

To nolegion and speedfreek:

 

Excellent find and interpretation

Wonder how we get them to read their own handbook?

 

 

Goodnight, Margaret.

[nolegion]

"The appeal by the appellant against the decision of the Secretary of State dated 19 November 2007 succeeds.

 

It has not been established that the appellant failed to show ‘good cause’ for failing to submit himself for a medical examination on 22 October 2007.

 

The case is remitted back to the Secretary of State with the following directions:

 

(i) The Secretary of State shall ask Medical Services to arrange for the appellant to be provided with details, in writing, of the conditions under which an interview or examination may be tape-recorded;

 

(ii) The Secretary of State shall ask Medical Services to offer the appellant a further appointment for a medical examination."

 

http://www.administrativeappeals.tribunals.gov.uk/judgmentfiles/j2663/CIB%203117%202008-01.doc

 

That is an extract from the only piece of case law( 2nd Tier, 2008) to address the issue of this thread directly.

 

In the light of the very recent change to the obligations of 'Medical Services' as linked earlier, in my personal analysis, that darned well ought to cover it

[Willowone]

Hello! I'm new here. I have found this thread because I was phoned up by ATOS last week to say I could no longer have ,y WCA recorded. I now have this in writing. I managed this quite accidentally by going through ATOS's formal complaint system - I think that they *must* send you a written reponse? (Everyone else that I asked said that they "weren't allowed" to put it in writing!)

 

I've reached the end of the line as far as trying to deal with ATOS is concerned. However, much to my surprise, I AM being helped by the DWP. (So far! Everything changes so quickly). I am hopeful that I will not be forced to have my WCA without a recording next week. ***fingers crossed*** I am being migrated from IB to ESA if that helps anyone.

 

I am also contacting lots of other people to tell them what is going on. There is an even more recent Chris Grayling statement that says we can have a recording:

 

"In the interim, departmental officials have asked Atos Healthcare to accommodate requests for recordings where the claimant requests in advance of their assessment."

 

This is a written response to Stephen Timms just last week! (Edited: BOTHER. The site won't let me link to the source because I'm new. Google "WCA recordings Timms Grayling" and choose the link to parliament dot uk which will be headed "House of Commons Hansard Written Answers for 05 July 2012".

 

To see the full text scroll down to the heading: "Work Capability Assessment: Recordings". (It's near the end).

 

I really hope that this helps someone. Xx

[reallymadwoman]

Hi Willowone and thanks for joining us.

 

It is of course entirely up to you whether you will risk a sanction for 'failing to submit' by refusing to go ahead with your assessment unless it's recorded but you should be aware that even where claimants have been promised recordings they have turned up at the assessment centre to find no equipment available etc.

 

Out of interest, what area are you in?

[nolegion]

He keeps saying it. Parliamentary written answer 12 07 2012:-

 

Chris Grayling(Minister of State (Employment), Work and Pensions; Epsom andEwell, Conservative)

 

"Based on the results of a trial during 2011, we have not implemented universal recording for claimants going through the work capability assessment (WCA). We have asked Atos Healthcare to accommodate requests for audio recording, where a claimant makes a request in advance of their assessment. This approach began in late 2011 and we will monitor take up during 2012 before making a decision on the requirement for recording assessments, taking into account factors such as value for money and the value it adds to the WCA process. As part of this process we are also reviewing Atos capacity to provide recordings for those claimants who currently request one."

 

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2012-07-12a.116588.h&s=%22Atos%22+section%3Awrans+section%3Awms#g116588.r0

[Simon7685]

It seems perfectly clear to me, from all these snippets of information that we can have our WCA's recorded. It is up to ATOS to facilitate these requests. This means more work for them, longer times for getting people assessed, which impacts on them reaching their figures of 11000 a week.......

 

ATOS answer to the above....... We tell people that they can no longer have their WCA recorded and blame the DWP. Most people will reluctantly accept this, therefore problem solved for ATOS. Those who don't accept it will be advised that refusing to attend a WCA are liable to sanction from the DWP. This is of course entirely correct. However if you refuse to attend for the WCA because there is no recording that I believe changes things. I do not see how DWP can legally stop someones benefit for refusing to be bullied into not having their WCA recorded, after having requested it. If a recorded WCA is carried out for just one person, then it is reasonable and fair to expect the same for your WCA.

 

Obviously this would need to be put to the test and there is only one way to do that. I will be testing this theory in due course if they try to assess me without a recording. However there are going to be others before me, so it is up to them to decide how far they want to test the system. If a recording is allowed for one, which it has then it must be available for all. I believe that would stick at any tribunal or even in the courts. The DWP and ATOS must act fairly to all not just some.

[Simon7685]

Right thats me off for a medical appointment, though happily not with ATOS..........

[hensteeth]

The official figures for those fraudulently claiming benefits is 0.5%, the governments stand on this is a massive sledgehammer to crack a tiny nut, it's frankly ridiculous and completely out of proportion to the problem. The current WCA is an inconvenience for the determined fraudster, but is hugely effective in discriminating against genuine claimants.

 

I'm not talking about recognised fraud - I never mentioned fraud. Fraud and abuse are not the same thing. It is abuse for someone to put an appeal in against an ESA assessment knowing that they will be paid the same rate as JSA for no effort and knowing that it is unlikely that they will ever be successful in any ESA claim.

 

The way the appeal system is geared at the moment is that there is absolutely no deterrent in playing the ESA roundabout game, when they are doing it primarily to avoid having to claim JSA and all that that entails.

 

When someone fails the ESA assessment they have two choices, appeal because they believe that the decision was the wrong one and that there is sufficient medical evidence available to support that argument or, appeal because they can do and it is a far more comfortable ride than claiming JSA AND you still get the same amount of money! It's a no brainer for those that are willing to play the system.

[osdset]

When someone fails the ESA assessment they have two choices, appeal because they believe that the decision was the wrong one and that there is sufficient medical evidence available to support that argument or, appeal because they can do and it is a far more comfortable ride than claiming JSA AND you still get the same amount of money! It's a no brainer for those that are willing to play the system.

 

Yes, but you constantly presuppose that there is a significant amount of claimants that do just that, I don't accept the argument, lump fraud and abuse together and it's a drop in the ocean percentage wise against the total number of claimants.

Any claimant abusing the system has to have a compliant GP on board to issue fit notes, GP's in most cases will not go along with a claimant just to buck the system, there has to be a genuine condition to justify the claim, the DWP are making a huge issue out of a relatively small problem and are paying ATOS millions to administer the remedy.

It's the same with JSA, the government and the DWP are in denial of the abysmal job prospects facing claimants, they will not see, nor will they hear, eventually they will be made to feel.

[Nystagmite]

Any claimant abusing the system has to have a compliant GP on board to issue fit notes, GP's in most cases will not go along with a claimant just to buck the system.

 

Absolutely. I saw my GP about getting signed off. It wasn't just a case of "I have Autism and Hyperacusis". I explained that the Hyperacusis means that many noises are painful and from experience, it's not that easy to find a suitable job (bar MDEC at Christmas) that I could realistically do.

[worried33]

Ok

 

First I got the aTOS letter they sent it very fast.

 

What I cant do is type full letters out on here and scan them.

 

The letter they sent to me confirms my current appointment which sadly I got wrong, its not jul 30 end of month its jul 20. As far as I know I do not have a hospital appointment that date. So I dont think I can get it cancelled on anything other than the recorded grounds.

 

They state their reasons are they dont have enough equipment and that they cannot delay assessments because of this, They misjudged the equipment needed. They state this about the DWP, this bit I will type exactly as it says.

 

"The DWP have therefore requested that we inform customers when a recording cannot be made, and in these circumstances, that the WCA process should continue. This will ensure your claim is dealt with in a timely manner. The DWP decision maker will take into account all available evidence in deciding your claim."

 

It also does say at the top of the letter "the DWP has asked ATOS to try and accomodate requests for recorded medicals where this is made in advance of the assessment" So atos added the word try.

 

So ATOS are claiming that the DWP consider speed more important than the rights of a recording.

Of course the DWP are washing their hands and claiming they have no power over ATOS. (to me now anyway).

 

On my letter it just said something like this.

 

I made an advanced request to have a recorded assessment which was initially accepted, ATOS then reversed their decision and now refuse to accomodate my request. My letter was to repeat the request and also to remind them of MR Grayling's statement on June 5th saying that ATOS should accomodate any advanced requests for a recorded assessment. I then supplied the quote and the web page link. I asked them to either add recording facilities to the existing appointment or cancel the appointment until they can provide the facilities.

[nolegion]

In my personal view, worried33, what you are now beingtold by DWP\Atos does not comply with law as currently stated, and that ought to mean that in due course the DWP will be legally unable to find that you have' failed to submit' to a medical examination 'without due cause', should you refuse to attend on an unrecorded basis.

 

But that's just my view, and it's a personal risk. Possible 'sanction', months to get to an appeal etc.

 

I also think it more than likely that certain parties are treating your circumstances as a test case, and are, amongst other things, watching this thread.

 

If that were indeed true, I am sure everyone here would wish to give a bunch of duplicitous, bullying, incompetents a warm , heartfelt, welcome.

[Willowone]

Thank you, Nolegion - that was very helpful of you to point out the more recent parliamentary answer

 

Worried33 - my assessment is the day before yours. I will try to make sure I come on here to let you know if I had to go ahead without a recording. I know that it's easier said than done but try not to let this wear you out.

 

reallymadwoman - thank you for the welcome I've already attended a WCA and found that they hadn't arranged for the recording equipment (). I was in and the HCP had started the questions before I discovered this! On that occasion I was sent home. I will know by Monday whether the DWP are helping me. The lady I spoke to was very nice (it's true! I know it seems unikely ) and she seemed shocked by the situation. She is absolutely the right person for me to be talking to and I am reasonably hopeful. I will (of course) report back. (I don't want to say exactly where I am but I'm dealing with Nottingham, despite being a very long way away. (South East)).

 

I'm trying to have a calm weekend so that I can prepare in case I am forced to have my WCA without a recording.

 

Can I suggest that if you have a charity that relates to your condition that you alert them to the problems that you are having re: recording. Keep your info specific and clear. The M.E. Association have been brilliant and have written about it today on their website

 

Best of luck to everyone going through this. It's rotten.